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Old 02-23-2014, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Long Island
1,721 posts, read 1,388,876 times
Reputation: 1418

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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Bobo, you've seen a lot of terms. Best case scenario. We drop the adjective before the word Jew. That makes us all Jews. Now we can break all us Jews into two categories: those who guard the Torah and it's Mitzvos, and those who do not. All the rest of those terms are meaningless.
I wish that were, TFF, but it has been proven to be a false statement time and time again again. Those terms have been applied to people and then used to discredit and demonize them. For some, whether not one upholds Torah is irrelevant; the shul you attend or your rabbi's alma mater is all that seems to matter.

I would love nothing more than for us to look at each other as "just" Jews and treat each other with the respect that goes along with it, but I don't look for that happen anytime soon.
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:37 PM
 
864 posts, read 733,948 times
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Quote:
For some, whether not one upholds Torah is irrelevant; the shul you attend or your rabbi's alma mater is all that seems to matter.
"Some" includes G-d. G-d made it very clear that keeping the Torah is relevant. Why don't you take it up with Him?
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Long Island
1,721 posts, read 1,388,876 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
"Some" includes G-d. G-d made it very clear that keeping the Torah is relevant. Why don't you take it up with Him?
I agree that keep Torah is relevant. My complaint is something else entirely, but it seems to have eluded you.
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Old 02-23-2014, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,371 posts, read 24,120,799 times
Reputation: 8869
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post

I would love nothing more than for us to look at each other as "just" Jews and treat each other with the respect that goes along with it, but I don't look for that happen anytime soon.
In the US, I don't see that happening anytime soon.
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Old 02-24-2014, 08:39 PM
 
637 posts, read 645,355 times
Reputation: 959
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
"Some" includes G-d. G-d made it very clear that keeping the Torah is relevant. Why don't you take it up with Him?

You completely misunderstood....
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Old 11-03-2014, 02:44 PM
 
12 posts, read 36,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobo1234 View Post
What's the difference between open orthodox and conservadox?
Tripped over this forum about 8 months later, and thought I'd try to address this. Full disclosure is that I consider our family living a "conservadox" lifestyle, although we have many friends who inhabit the progressive orthodox camp so we're familiar with that world as well.

Setting formal definitions aside (which I don't think really even exist for conservadox observance anyway, since it's not a formal movement, ideology, or anything), I think it's a perspective and lifestyle difference.

First, I've never in my travels throughout wide swaths of Jewish life have I ever heard anyone call them selves "open orthodox," even those who studied in Riverdale. I suspect, though, that this describes people who are going to partnership minyanim, etc. I'd say that crowd is solidly and fully modern orthodox in lifestyle and observance but are, as the name suggests, more flexible regarding three specific things - engagement with non-orthodox Jews in a Jewish contect, Jewish intellectual inquiry, and Jewish gender roles. While I fully understand the concern of some who are labeling this as merely a new form of Conservative Judaism (CJ) (and that slippery slope is something OO adherents should guard against closely given the sorry state of CJ), I believe that doesn't at all describe this population and is indeed the slur it's intended to be by those who use it. These are fully Orthodox Jews in outlook, lifestyle, and practice by my and I believe most mainstream definitions.

Conservadox (CDX) Jews, by contrast, I believe are misnamed, even though I use the term to describe us all the time. The way I like to think of CDX Judaism is as an egalitarian "pure" Conservative Judaism, pre-1950's. I like to use the term "Traditional" now that that tiny CJ offshoot is gone. The Conservadox Jew of today is usually Shabbat observant, kashrut at home, sends their kids to day school, attends shul weekly, avoids secularized holidays (Halloween, Valentines day, etc), and revolves their lives around the Jewish calendar (the fact that, along with Shabbat observance, I think most separates CDX from CJ). This usually means taking off from work for the all of the chagim and having everything revolve around community activities. If CDX Jews eat at non-Kosher hechshered restaurants outside the home (which some CDX Jews won't do, and some will) then they won't eat meat and will eat vege, some only on glass plates. Orthodox Jews, even open ones, would never do that. Once upon a time, this level of observance would have described many Jews in a CJ congregation post-WWII. Today, however, this is all massively different from most conservative Jews who, while more in-married, engaged, and Jewishly educated than their Reform counterparts, are not living much different lives Jewishly.

The sad thing for CDX Jews is that their own congregations have often marginalized and rejected them as SuperJews. They aren't at home in Orthodox congregations with all of the various gender and lifestyle minhagim (hats, wigs, separate seating, etc) and they can't find people in their own congregations who take it as seriously as they do. Which is why the "conservadox" term is most appropriate. They exist in limbo between the two lifestyles and communities. Respected but not embraced by one end of the spectrum, and mocked and dismissed by their own.
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Old 11-04-2014, 04:12 AM
 
Location: OC/LA
3,831 posts, read 3,703,571 times
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Thanks for the explanation. Good to know.

I take it you attend an Conservative shul? From your post it sounds like you wish you could accepted at an orthodox shul, however, they won't accept your current observance level.
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Old 11-04-2014, 08:50 AM
 
3,964 posts, read 3,345,152 times
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Garris, that was an interesting and informative post, and I hope you stick around.

Last edited by theflipflop; 11-04-2014 at 09:45 AM..
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Old 11-04-2014, 08:34 PM
 
12 posts, read 36,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperionGap View Post
Thanks for the explanation. Good to know.

I take it you attend an Conservative shul? From your post it sounds like you wish you could accepted at an orthodox shul, however, they won't accept your current observance level.
We will occasionally pop into a Conservative shul, but we're fortunate to live in a city with multiple traditional, non-demoninational, lay-lead minyanim that often overlap into several different communities at once. We tend to rotate between them.

It isn't so much that we wish we could be accepted at orthodox shuls (although I hugely admire the seriousness and commitment). I mean, we don't see ourselves as orthodox, so that's not it. From gender roles to culturally, we just can't (and won't) swim in that pond. It's more that we wish there wasn't such a huge gap in Jewish life and culture between the mainstream conservative world and the orthodox world. The "observant" wing of conservative Judaism has just become so tiny between losses to secular culture or the orthodox world, you can sometimes feel like you're bowling alone. There just isn't a national or international critical mass of us...

Again, we're fortunate to have lived in places where there actually are groups of similarly living people to have formed davening communities. But how many such groups are there around the nation or world?

As far as feminist orthodox Shira Hadasha (groundbreaking group in Israel) style groups, a good list is here: Shira Hadasha - Shira Hadasha around the world

As far as more observant, non-orthodox, independent, traditional style minyanim, there are probably fewer still. Many cities have maybe one or, if lucky, two such groups like Hadar in NYC, D.C. Minyan in D.C., Washington Square Minyan and Minyan Shaleym in Boston, and Minyan Kolenu in NJ.

There was briefly a conservative offshoot that labeled itself "Traditional" Judaism that tried to maintain that observance level, but they were non-egalitarian and that was more their rallying cry than anything else, and that wasn't going to (and didn't) go anywhere...
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Old 11-04-2014, 08:37 PM
 
12 posts, read 36,486 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Garris, that was an interesting and informative post, and I hope you stick around.
Thanks. As long as there is intelligent and non-belligerent conversation happening here, I definitely will.
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