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View Poll Results: Should Women be allowed up to the bima and read from the torah?
Yes! It's the 21st century and women should have equal rights! 6 85.71%
No! Traditionally, it is supposed to be the man that does an aliyah and reads from the torah. 1 14.29%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-18-2014, 04:34 AM
 
61 posts, read 56,794 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
I agree with Tikva, if you're so convinced that ultra-Orthodox Judaism is the only correct form of Judaism and that everything else leads to anti-Zionism...
I never said it's the only correct form. However, it does the best in preserving Jewish traditions and rituals. Let me ask you, how do you know so much about the ultra orthodox? I bet you didn't learn all that information from a non-orthodox shul.
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Old 02-18-2014, 05:23 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,380 posts, read 24,159,037 times
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Of Usuario's post I'll expand on them one at a time, so:

Quote:
1.) Kol b'isha erva (the voice of a woman is nakedness)
And now the Linky:

Quote:
We have seen above that there is no general prohibition against women singing in classic Jewish law based on the Talmud and subsequent codes and commentaries until the early nineteenth century.
Schechter Institute - Responsa in a Moment
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Old 01-29-2015, 04:05 AM
 
7 posts, read 5,311 times
Reputation: 11
I am brand new here, I tread with silk slippers, the truth is that I came to the forum in order to respond to another thread which has since been closed, but the issues are similar, so I will attempt to gently add my two cents here.

I think that one can get sidetracked and confused by using the typical stereotypes and names, ultra-this and ultra-that. I once said that now in the digital age, one doesn't have to use the old fashion colors, like "I'm black" or "I'm grey", now we can hexi codes, like a real ultra will be a #000000, but a grey will have flexibility to relate to himself as a #333333 or a #666666 or other shades this way and that way...

Let's review a couple of fundamentals:

G-d gave us the Torah at the revelation at Mount Sinai, the Written Torah and the Oral Torah, and expects (and demands) that we follow His will. This is point that it is worthwhile not to disagree with, for the Talmud, the codification of the Oral Torah, places such a person that doesn't accept this in a problematic status.

Jewish law, which is the brass tacks of this Divine expectation/demand/Will, has indeed evolved over the years, but the way it has evolved is in accordance with basic principles which have their roots in the Talmud.

To learn Jewish law well requires a diligent effort and commitment of time and energy to go through the material properly with the goal of finding the truth, not of proving a certain opinion right or wrong.

I was one of the lucky ones who merited to come to Israel to learn in Kollelim full time, which translates to approx. 9-10 hours a day, for around 25 years, until the pleasant and expensive obligation of marrying off my kids just knocked me off my feet. Since then I learn only part time. After gaining a certain fluency in the Talmud with the commentaries, I went on the specialize in Jewish law.

I can share with you that to learn properly takes massive time. I can tell you that to learn basic Jewish law about keeping Kosher took us 3 years, full time. And to learn the laws of the Sabbath took another three years full time. I do not brag, because any real Talmid Chacham who reads my words here will turn up his nose and say, "That's all!?!"

It makes sense that Rabbis who have the Fear of Heaven, and have dedicated the time that it takes in order to become properly fluent in Jewish law, should be viewed as the authorities in Jewish law. In the same way that it is bordering on stupidity to seek the instruction of a paramedic about the treatment of serious internal disease, (no offense meant to paramedics, just that everyone has his place), or to a legal secretary to take serious legal advice, so too, if it is important to you to practice Judaism the way that G-d says it should be done, you should take advice and accept the rulings of those that really know, not just from those whose knowledge of Jewish Law is primarily based on a diligent reading of the Kitzur Shulach Aruch, and of what they see brought in Hamodia newspaper.

You may disagree with Rabbis' decisions if you worked through the matter in the Talmud and the codes, and you come out with a different conclusion. Just two things - you have to know with whom you are disagreeing: if you want to disagree with Warren Buffet about investing or with so-and-so about national security, you better know what you're talking about if you don't want to look like a fool. And also, additionally, even in the highest of Rabbinic circles, there is a certain accepted deference that people, even though they disagree with the ruling, still practice like the accepted ruling, for many reasons.

Also in terms of delegating responsibility in the Jewish areas, like Shechita (ritual slaughter) or Sofrut (those who write Torah scrolls, Tefillin, and Mezuzot), Jewish leaders have been screaming for years, since the medieval commentators through today, that such responsibility should only be in the hands of those have proven themselves, and continue to prove themselves, G-d fearing and experts in Jewish law and the particular practice in question.

It is accepted in most G-d fearing circles to accept the Rabbi's decision in the areas of worship.

The Talmud, the Mishna in Sanhedrin with the accompanying Gemara there, states that one who belittles Talmidei Chachamin, like by calling accredited accepted Rabbis in various positions, some of the names that I have seen here in this forum, could lose his share in the World to Come. I don't mean to chastise, just to bring to your attention, one should be careful about this, at least from now on.

Sincerely,

Rabbi Boruch Rappaport

MOD CUT

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 02-13-2015 at 05:48 PM.. Reason: Advertizing is not allowed---That includes advertizing a website
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Old 01-29-2015, 05:20 AM
 
Location: Long Island
1,726 posts, read 1,392,522 times
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Welcome to the forum, rabbi.

How would you answer the question posed in the title of this thread?
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Old 01-29-2015, 05:19 PM
 
7 posts, read 5,311 times
Reputation: 11
Thank you for your warm welcome.

What the Torah authorities say about the question you don't need me for, I trust that you know what they say as well as I do. For MY opinion that I can put my signature on, I would like to first look into the matter with a learning partner, and that I don't have time for right now, and also I am not sure that it is my place to be writing on such a topic.

Just if I may add one comment, the nature of the question, "Should women be allowed..." as opposed to "May women be allowed..." adds another dimension - that of "hanhaga" as opposed to "Halacha", Jewish law. Hanhaga means the way that the one in charge dictates his rulings, which are probably mainly based on Halacha, Jewish law, but may be based on other things as well.

I remember many years ago when I was working for Ohr Somayach's Ask the Rabbi, if I am not making a mistake, someone asked me how much it should cost to build a private Mikveh in his own home. I took the question to a friend of mine who in his earlier years had traveled around the world building Mikvehs for various communities. He told me something that I didn't expect, he said "it basically depends on how idiot-proof you want to make it". In other words, if the Mikve is being run by someone who knows the Jewish Law about Mikvehs backwards and forwards, and also knows the technicalities, can recognize the problems that can develop, then you can get away with very little. But if you don't have such supervision, and you want the Mikveh to remain Kosher for next month also, then you have to set it up in a way which is more complicated, so that it won't inadvertently lose its status of being Kosher.

I'll share with you another example - I sit every year apprenticing at a certain Rabbi, a community leader, when he rules on lulav and etrog between Yom Kippur and Sukkot. There was an issue one year, when a local falafel store who had a hechsher, a kashrut certificate, from this Rabbi, before Rosh Hashana changed their setup such that people who bought the falafel didn't take the sandwiches home, but rather sat there in the store and ate them there, a situation which brought to intermingling between the teenage boys and girls of the community. The Rabbi asked them to take away the tables and put it back the way it was, and they didn't do it, so the Rabbi took away the hechsher, the Kashrut certification.

Anyway, on one of the days when we were sitting to rule on arbah minim the boys who run the shop came in fuming, and asked the Rabbi if the place was Kosher last month, why is not Kosher this month when none of the ingredients had changed. He explained to them that they are looking for his cooperation to testify that the place was Kosher. By putting in tables, he explained to them very gently, they created a situation where an unacceptable practice in this Orthodox Jewish community was occurring, that the parents send the daughter to the falafel place and she comes home with a few falafels and a boyfriend, something that is unheard of in the community. (That's obviously a bit of an exaggeration, but the direction is clear, and no Heaven fearing parent wants such a situation to even have a chance of developing). Boys and girls start to get friendly with each other in a specific guided framework, not in a falafel store. The neighbors very much objected, and he says that they are correct. So he is not going to be cooperative about such a setup, to put in his time and effort and authority in order to create a situation which the community objects to, and rightly so, he explained to them very gently in a way that they understood.

Now I know that this is probably a fiery issue, and it's truly not my intention to fan the flames. I am just trying to relate to what you asked me, about the question which stands in the title of the thread "SHOULD women be allowed..." that it could include other aspects than just the strict letter of the law.

Yours sincerely,

Boruch Rappaport
MOD CUT

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 02-13-2015 at 05:50 PM.. Reason: Advertizing is not allowed---That includes advertizing a website
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Long Island
1,726 posts, read 1,392,522 times
Reputation: 1428
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoruchRappaport View Post
...
For MY opinion that I can put my signature on, I would like to first look into the matter with a learning partner, and that I don't have time for right now, and also I am not sure that it is my place to be writing on such a topic.
...
All we do here is express our opinions on various topics. I look forward to you participating in that with us.
While we are a small group, we are quite varied and having another Jew to discuss things with would be nice.
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:14 PM
 
3,966 posts, read 3,350,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
All we do here is express our opinions on various topics. I look forward to you participating in that with us.
While we are a small group, we are quite varied and having another Jew to discuss things with would be nice.
Yes, please stick around. It appears you have quality Torah to give over to this group. Welcome!
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Old 01-30-2015, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Lake Worth, FL
388 posts, read 316,929 times
Reputation: 264
Posts about the falafel place and its Kashrut certification are reasons why I will never be Ultra-Orthodox.

That is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.
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Old 01-30-2015, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
939 posts, read 1,263,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoruchRappaport View Post
I'll share with you another example - I sit every year apprenticing at a certain Rabbi, a community leader, when he rules on lulav and etrog between Yom Kippur and Sukkot. There was an issue one year, when a local falafel store who had a hechsher, a kashrut certificate, from this Rabbi, before Rosh Hashana changed their setup such that people who bought the falafel didn't take the sandwiches home, but rather sat there in the store and ate them there, a situation which brought to intermingling between the teenage boys and girls of the community. The Rabbi asked them to take away the tables and put it back the way it was, and they didn't do it, so the Rabbi took away the hechsher, the Kashrut certification.
Can you specify what particular transgressions are committed when a Jew eats at such a restaurant after losing its kashrut status?

Is it the same as if the Jew ate a hamburger at McDonald's?
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Old 01-30-2015, 01:21 PM
 
Location: OC/LA
3,831 posts, read 3,709,283 times
Reputation: 2214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tikva View Post
Posts about the falafel place and its Kashrut certification are reasons why I will never be Ultra-Orthodox.

That is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.
Yeah that story was absolutely absurd. The brainwashing going on in those communities is really scary.
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