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View Poll Results: Should Women be allowed up to the bima and read from the torah?
Yes! It's the 21st century and women should have equal rights! 6 85.71%
No! Traditionally, it is supposed to be the man that does an aliyah and reads from the torah. 1 14.29%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-13-2015, 04:42 AM
 
7 posts, read 5,307 times
Reputation: 11

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Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
Can you specify what particular transgressions are committed when a Jew eats at such a restaurant after losing its kashrut status?

Is it the same as if the Jew ate a hamburger at McDonald's?
Sorry for the delay, I only received word yesterday that there were responses.

A hamburger at McDonald's in out-and-out not-Kosher for a million and one reasons.

To eat in a restaurant which has lost its Kashrut status, and I limit my words only to the issue of Kashrut, basically one is taking a risk. One can't be sure. It was different hundreds of years ago before modern day processing and additives. But nowadays, because of the many additives which it is the standard practice to put in foods, and because of the complexity of the preparation, if you want to be sure, that is, if you want to take your Kashrut observance seriously, then basically anything you put in your mouth requires kashrut supervision.

Additionally, there is the problem of trust. I argued once with the Bostoner Rebbe zatzal, in the early '70's when I was part of the community there about these issues, and he told me a story of one of the important men of the Bostoner congregation who used to go to a vegetarian restaurant every day for a plate of soup during his lunch break. One day in the middle of eating his soup he pulled out a small chicken bone. He asked the manager what's a chicken bone doing in a vegetarian vegetable soup? They answered him that since he is such a loyal customer, and knowing how much he enjoys the vegetable soup, and seeing as they didn't have any that day, they asked the neighboring restaurant if they would supply them with a bowl of vegetable soup for their customer.

Since then I've grown up and I've seen with my own eyes that this is not an uncommon problem, and unless there is unrelenting supervision going on, you're asking for trouble.

Rabbi Boruch Rappaport

MOD CUT

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 02-13-2015 at 05:52 PM.. Reason: Advertizing is not allowed---That includes advertizing a website
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Old 02-13-2015, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
939 posts, read 1,263,038 times
Reputation: 760
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoruchRappaport View Post
Additionally, there is the problem of trust. I argued once with the Bostoner Rebbe zatzal, in the early '70's when I was part of the community there about these issues, and he told me a story of one of the important men of the Bostoner congregation who used to go to a vegetarian restaurant every day for a plate of soup during his lunch break. One day in the middle of eating his soup he pulled out a small chicken bone. He asked the manager what's a chicken bone doing in a vegetarian vegetable soup? They answered him that since he is such a loyal customer, and knowing how much he enjoys the vegetable soup, and seeing as they didn't have any that day, they asked the neighboring restaurant if they would supply them with a bowl of vegetable soup for their customer.

Since then I've grown up and I've seen with my own eyes that this is not an uncommon problem, and unless there is unrelenting supervision going on, you're asking for trouble.

Rabbi Boruch Rappaport
www.torahonline.co.il
I have trouble believing this story. Vegetarian restaurants that advertise themselves as such would not pull a fast one like this on a customer. Whereas a regular restaurant that served vegetable soup might. I think this story was made up to scare people into only going to places with kosher certification. Who's to say that when the mashgiach (kosher inspector) is not around that the employees might sneak in something from another place? It's happened before, even at butcher shops.
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Old 02-13-2015, 10:39 AM
 
3,964 posts, read 3,348,129 times
Reputation: 1246
Usario, there's nothing wrong with a Jew who is not careful in his kashrus from eating at a vegetarian restaurant. That Jew likely does not guard many other Mitzvos, so who is to say guarding this one is so important.

But no Jew who is truly shomer Mitzvos would eat at a place without supervision and full hashgacha.

Relating this to the OP, If one is comfortable hearing women at the bima or the amud, then just don't go to an Orthodox minyan. That's why we have reform, conservative, etc, where you can make up your own standards and then follow them with content.
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Old 02-13-2015, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,376 posts, read 24,142,259 times
Reputation: 8872
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoruchRappaport View Post
Sorry for the delay, I only received word yesterday that there were responses.

Quote:
A hamburger at McDonald's in out-and-out not-Kosher for a million and one reasons.
To eat in a restaurant which has lost its Kashrut status, and I limit my words only to the issue of Kashrut, basically one is taking a risk. One can't be sure. It was different hundreds of years ago before modern day processing and additives. But nowadays, because of the many additives which it is the standard practice to put in foods, and because of the complexity of the preparation, if you want to be sure, that is, if you want to take your Kashrut observance seriously, then basically anything you put in your mouth requires kashrut supervision.

Additionally, there is the problem of trust. I argued once with the Bostoner Rebbe zatzal, in the early '70's when I was part of the community there about these issues, and he told me a story of one of the important men of the Bostoner congregation who used to go to a vegetarian restaurant every day for a plate of soup during his lunch break. One day in the middle of eating his soup he pulled out a small chicken bone. He asked the manager what's a chicken bone doing in a vegetarian vegetable soup? They answered him that since he is such a loyal customer, and knowing how much he enjoys the vegetable soup, and seeing as they didn't have any that day, they asked the neighboring restaurant if they would supply them with a bowl of vegetable soup for their customer.

Since then I've grown up and I've seen with my own eyes that this is not an uncommon problem, and unless there is unrelenting supervision going on, you're asking for trouble.

Rabbi Boruch Rappaport
MOD CUT

Quote:
but luckily there are nearly 50 Kosher McDonald’s spread throughout Israel, certified Kosher by their local Rabbanuts,
List of Kosher McDonald's in Israel Kosher & Jewish Travel Guide | Kosher Restaurants

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 02-14-2015 at 06:44 PM.. Reason: It has been taken care off
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Old 02-13-2015, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Lake Worth, FL
388 posts, read 316,793 times
Reputation: 264
I have been at a McDonald's on Ben Yehuda in Jerusalem. Certified Kosher Lemehadrin.
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Old 02-14-2015, 12:39 PM
 
7 posts, read 5,307 times
Reputation: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
I have trouble believing this story. Vegetarian restaurants that advertise themselves as such would not pull a fast one like this on a customer. Whereas a regular restaurant that served vegetable soup might. I think this story was made up to scare people into only going to places with kosher certification. Who's to say that when the mashgiach (kosher inspector) is not around that the employees might sneak in something from another place? It's happened before, even at butcher shops.
Usuario,

I knew the Bostoner Rebbe for decades, and I was very close to him during my years in Boston. He did not make up stories. This conversation that I had with him was when I was arguing the other side, that what can be wrong with a vegetarian restaurant, and tuna fish, etc etc. Also the congregant that he quoted I also knew well, and he would not make up the story. The story is true.

I also know, from experience in life, and from, well, to be fair let's call it second-hand knowledge, (I hang out with Rabbis and Mashgichim so I hear such stories, not around a story-telling table, rather in the framework of contextual conversation about these issues), that store owners, or restaurant owners who aren't themselves so careful about Kashrut themselves, but have the hashgacha only for business considerations, can't be fully trusted, and can pull tricks, like you say in your next sentence.

>>> Who's to say that when the mashgiach (kosher inspector) is not around that the employees might sneak in something from another place?

I agree, and that's why a mashgiach has to be really really on his toes. That's what I'm talking about. And all the more so in a place where the mashgiach is not present, or where there is no hashgacha.

Rabbi Boruch Rappaport
MOD CUT

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 02-14-2015 at 06:40 PM.. Reason: Advertizing is not permitted
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Old 02-14-2015, 12:48 PM
 
7 posts, read 5,307 times
Reputation: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tikva View Post
I have been at a McDonald's on Ben Yehuda in Jerusalem. Certified Kosher Lemehadrin.
Tikva and Pruzhany,

I apologize for the misunderstanding. I was talking about McDonald's in the US, I know nothing about what goes on here with McDonald's in Israel. I did not intend to give misinformation, only input according to my knowledge and experience and viewpoint in the spirit of the forum. Sorry.

Rabbi Boruch Rappaport
MOD CUT

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 02-14-2015 at 06:37 PM.. Reason: Advertizing is not permitted
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Old 02-14-2015, 04:04 PM
 
7 posts, read 5,307 times
Reputation: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
If you know nothing about Israel, then why are trying to get money from us by directing us to a (even your links are all in Israel) website in Israel???
I came to this forum in order to respond to a thread which was already closed.

I stumbled upon this thread whose issues are similar, at least in what I wanted to share.

I think that I have already proven myself that I submit content of value, and not just "Great post, I agree, thanks for sharing, here's my site".

I have never seen a forum yet that doesn't have a signature with can contain a link, and I have never seen a forum yet that lets a brand new person have a signature. I put my link in order to present myself who I am, what I do.

The attack that I am here in order to try to "get your money" is unfair.

I have been living in Jerusalem for over 35 years. What I said was that I don't know anything about McDonald's in Israel.

The address of my site which I listed offers a free email course, nothing to buy.

Now that I look around, it seems to me at first glance that y'all don't have signatures here, just a place to put one's personal site address I guess in the profile. I stand corrected.

MOD CUT

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 02-14-2015 at 06:48 PM.. Reason: It has been taken care of
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Old 02-14-2015, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn, NY (Crown Heights/Weeksville)
993 posts, read 1,030,526 times
Reputation: 1098
Most people I've ever heard try to justify keeping women off the bima say this: "Jewish law excuses women from public participation in time-bound mitzvot, such as prayer services. This is a beautiful recognition of her equally important home responsibilities, especially child and elder care, that are unpredictable. Those essential tasks make it hard for women to be present in public for time-bound mitzvot. So women are EXCUSED."

So far, you probably think I therefore oppose women being called up to reading from Torah. And that is the exact opposite of what i believe and do.

It's fine to "excuse" women, but suppose they do show up at services, despite all their home obligations? Suppose they have many time-saving machines today in the kitchen that free up her time in new ways?

Just consider the time it took my grandmother to make a pot of oatmeal for our breakfasts (starting at 4 a.m.) or do a round of family laundry (hand-wringer, ironing before permanent press fabrics were invented..) to my machine-supported list of household chores. There's just no comparison. I do in 4-6 hours what took her 4 days, and we both work hard. Challah in a bread-baking machine, for heavens' sake! I am grateful for all these liberating technologies that free me to go to shul on Shabbat. When I get there, how dare anyone tell me what I can or cannot do. In particular, to deny women the proximity to Torah by excluding us from an aliyah is incomprehensible and downright mean.

Show me where it says "halachically" that the community should put a wedge between half the congregation and our Torah, which was given to men, women and children.

Why should we be "excluded" from full participation and involvement with Torah, once we arrive at synagogue?

When nobody can answer my challenge (excused = / = excluded) , they move on to the next rationalization: "Bima leadership by women shames men." That is completely inside-out thinking. Men could embrace the intellectual accomplishments of women, just as Jewish women beam when the men in their families step forward to shine in public leadership.

All I want is someone capable, competent, with quality fluency in their reading of Torah. I am equally delighted, and could care less if it's a soprano, alto, tenor, baritone or bass voice at the helm. Just do it well! Make us proud!

Last edited by BrightRabbit; 02-14-2015 at 07:35 PM..
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Old 02-14-2015, 07:37 PM
 
3,964 posts, read 3,348,129 times
Reputation: 1246
How is it tznius for a woman to sing in public? Wow that you think it is. Thank G-d we have Conservative/Reform shuls were you can do whatever you want. What's the problem? You want Orthodox men and women to act like you? Ugh.
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