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View Poll Results: Should Women be allowed up to the bima and read from the torah?
Yes! It's the 21st century and women should have equal rights! 6 85.71%
No! Traditionally, it is supposed to be the man that does an aliyah and reads from the torah. 1 14.29%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Old 02-14-2015, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn, NY (Crown Heights/Weeksville)
993 posts, read 1,027,349 times
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A woman's purpose when chanting Torah is the same as a man's: to beautify sacred words, not turn men on. It's a bima, not a cabaret.
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Old 02-14-2015, 11:19 PM
 
40 posts, read 33,601 times
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The basic question: Does torah adapt and change to the morals and standards of the times, or does it adapt and change to avoid integration with the times.

Is torah an all or nothing religion? is it a pick and choose religion? do we do things because they make sense?

to nit pic on one issue at a time seems to zoom in and out of the same major problem.

Why do we do what we do?
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Old 02-15-2015, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,354 posts, read 24,094,847 times
Reputation: 8864
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoruchRappaport View Post
...

I have been living in Jerusalem for over 35 years. What I said was that I don't know anything about McDonald's in Israel.

...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoruchRappaport View Post
...

I apologize for the misunderstanding. I was talking about McDonald's in the US, I know nothing about what goes on here with McDonald's in Israel. I did not intend to give misinformation, only input according to my knowledge and experience and viewpoint in the spirit of the forum. Sorry.
How can one who lives anywhere in Jerusalem, especially for 35 years, not know that McDonald's with blue signs are Kashrut certified by the Rabbinate. What's next, you're going to tell us you've never been to the Central Bus Station (and never heard of Burger's Bar either)?

Now back to our topic. Since you've stated that you've had numerous decades of learning of the Tanakh and the Talmud, where does it say that women should not go up to the bima and recite from the Torah?
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Old 02-15-2015, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Lake Worth, FL
388 posts, read 316,338 times
Reputation: 264
Haha, never been to HaTakanah HaMerkazit! I loved that station, got some great rugelach there waiting for the bus to Hevron.

I liked Burgers Bar! It was great for a late night grab on Rehov Yafo . Best burger I had b'Yisrael was definitely at Black Bar N Burger on Rehov Shlomzion HaMalka off Yafo in Yerushalayim.
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Old 02-15-2015, 12:26 PM
 
3,952 posts, read 3,340,232 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post

Now back to our topic. Since you've stated that you've had numerous decades of learning of the Tanakh and the Talmud, where does it say that women should not go up to the bima and recite from the Torah?
We find our examples of how to act properly from the Torah, of course. We see no examples of untznius behavior from Sarah Emeinu, Avraham's wife. But where we do see examples of women attempting to abandon their tznius heritage, like with Dena (Yaakov's daughter) and Leah (his first wife), we see terrible suffering.

It's unbecoming for a frum woman to sing or chant in public. Reform and C can do whatever they want. I won't tell them what to do, as long as they keep their non Torah behavior out of sight of my family and community.
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Old 02-15-2015, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
939 posts, read 1,261,142 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrightRabbit View Post

When nobody can answer my challenge (excused = / = excluded) , they move on to the next rationalization: "Bima leadership by women shames men." That is completely inside-out thinking. Men could embrace the intellectual accomplishments of women, just as Jewish women beam when the men in their families step forward to shine in public leadership.

All I want is someone capable, competent, with quality fluency in their reading of Torah. I am equally delighted, and could care less if it's a soprano, alto, tenor, baritone or bass voice at the helm. Just do it well! Make us proud!
See my post from a year ago:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/33519074-post10.html

The reasoning that the ultra-Othodox use morphs depending on the times. It's usually some nebulous reason like "tznius" that's used to shut women up and keep them at home making babies and cooking dinner.
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Old 02-15-2015, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,354 posts, read 24,094,847 times
Reputation: 8864
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
We find our examples of how to act properly from the Torah, of course. We see no examples of untznius behavior from Sarah Emeinu, Avraham's wife. But where we do see examples of women attempting to abandon their tznius heritage, like with Dena (Yaakov's daughter) and Leah (his first wife), we see terrible suffering.

It's unbecoming for a frum woman to sing or chant in public. Reform and C can do whatever they want. I won't tell them what to do, as long as they keep their non Torah behavior out of sight of my family and community.
How many years was it again until you became a Ba'al Teshuva? Since you can't read with understanding lashon hakodesh (Torah Hebrew), you are not a authority on it. You are simply a student relying on someone else's translation. Thus what you state is your opinion, but has nothing with what is actually written.

There are a few of us who are (or were) Frum from birth, Then according to what Boruch is typing he has the ability to possibly answer the query.
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Old 02-15-2015, 02:33 PM
 
Location: OC/LA
3,831 posts, read 3,699,941 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Reform and C can do whatever they want. I won't tell them what to do, as long as they keep their non Torah behavior out of sight of my family and community.
Scared it might traumatized them so much you might have to baptize your grandchildren or go to their gay wedding?
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Old 02-15-2015, 02:36 PM
 
7 posts, read 5,305 times
Reputation: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by PourMeAnother View Post
The basic question: Does torah adapt and change to the morals and standards of the times, or does it adapt and change to avoid integration with the times.

Is torah an all or nothing religion? is it a pick and choose religion? do we do things because they make sense?

to nit pic on one issue at a time seems to zoom in and out of the same major problem.

Why do we do what we do?
I can speak only from the approach that G-d wants us to do His Will, and that He told us His Will in the Torah, the written and the oral. That's how I was brought up and that's what I understand.

I remember when I was a teenager and I started to ask all kinds of questions looking for answers, I picked an argument with the Conservative Rabbi in our town on this issue. I remember he told me, I'll never forget his words, "I don't believe in a G-d that cares about all ham or no ham. The main thing is that you have to uplift your eating, and not eat like an animal." Ayyy, it says in the Torah don't eat ham? So I guess that either he understood that G-d didn't really mean the Mitzvot be'davka (in an exactly manner), rather He meant it as suggestions to apply principles, like don't eat like an animal, or alternatively, maybe for our dear beloved brethren from the Conservative and Reform movements it is indeed a pick and choose religion. I can't answer you from these standpoints because I rejected them some 40-50 years ago, and I never went in to it, I don't really know.

I understand that both sides in your basic question are true. Look, Torah, by which I mean the totality of the written and the oral law, including how to behave nicely (pirkei avot), and perfecting character traits, and instilling the Fear of Heaven in one's Divine service, there are things which are fixed and will never change. Tefillin have to be black, and just because nowadays everyone is wearing paisley, we're not going to say you can paint your Tefillin paisley. There's a framework of Halacha which is not dependent on the times and the place, which is not going to budge an inch.

But there are many things which are not really forbidden, but it's, well, how do I say, not exemplary conduct, or alternatively not particularly Jewish in nature. These are things for which the Rabbi of every community, or alternatively sometimes the Gedolei Hador, the Torah leaders, come out and take a stand one way or the other, either like you say, in order to adapt to the morals and standards of our time, or alternatively to avoid integration.

Things get complicated, it seems to me, when there is a situation of a lack of Jewish education, a lack of Torah knowledge. When things become confused and because of ignorance one can put a mere custom on the same level as a prohibition for which the Torah prescribes the death penalty.

Why do we do what we do? I'll tell you, I struggled with this question as a teenager, really struggled, and I came to my own conclusion after examining for many years to the best of my ability, that G-d really meant it, and He wants us to observe Torah. That's why I do it. But this is truly a basic question, and you have to come to your own conclusion.
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Old 02-15-2015, 04:15 PM
 
3,952 posts, read 3,340,232 times
Reputation: 1246
I assure anyone who cares, that the ability to read and translate lashen hakodesh is not more useful in understanding Hashem's will than having access to talmidei chachamim. Translating Torah according to ones own intellect, without the benefit of chazal, is apikores.
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