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Old 02-23-2014, 08:42 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
In light of how secularism is being forced down everybody's throat, I think it's a good law in theory, at least. A Jew should be able to refuse to take pictures in a church, for instance, without getting into trouble with the law. A friend of mine was once asked to print up adult posters. The second he saw the picture, he balked, refusing the job. At least this law would deprive the potential customer the opportunity of suing him.
You do realize, don't you, that rarely is secularism or atheism the problem. In fact, the last big controversy to strike was the removal of a giant 50 foot cross from a war memorial in California. Guess who wanted it removed? Yeah, a Jewish veterans group.

Of course, atheists and secularists were blamed for it no matter how many times we posted who was behind it - even when we used big bold letters.

What YOU fail to understand is that one cannot have freedom of religion without freedom from religion. Allowing a person to push their religious views onto others violates the rights of those who do not want to worship or adhere to a particular god or religion. In addition, NO WHERE in the Torah or the Bible does God or Jesus command Christians or Jews to actively discriminate. Well ... unless you call being commanded to KILL homosexuals a severe form of discrimination. Why only follow the law part way but balk at completing the task? Might as well go on a gay murdering spree if we're willing to discriminate against them.

Also, back in the 1970's, Christians tried to make it mandatory that all businesses (save essential ones) close down on Sunday in observance of the Christian Sabbath. Of course the Jews threw a fit because it would mean they would have to close their businesses for the entire weekend so they could observe their Saturday Sabbath. Isn't it nice how the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Jews, saying that the government cannot force any business to close its doors for a religious observance because it interferes with the rights of non-believers and those of differing beliefs like, say, Jews ....

The moral of the story is that the Jewish faith is all too familiar with having other religions and ideologies imposed upon them, so having someone like you defend a law that imposes Christianity on homosexuals is a bit, hmm ... what's the word? Unappreciative? Hypocritical? It's like the kid who grew up poor, became rich as an adult, and has turned against his old neighborhood and friends. If the Jewish faith wishes to be left unaccosted by Christianity, then you can't engage in hypocrisy by supporting a law that would allow Christianity to impose itself onto others.

Obviously, Jews didn't like the fact that a 50 foot tall symbol of Christianity presided over a war memorial honoring fallen soldiers of ALL faiths (and there was no 50 foot tall Star of David).
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:00 AM
 
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Quote:
You do realize, don't you, that rarely is secularism or atheism the problem. In fact, the last big controversy to strike was the removal of a giant 50 foot cross from a war memorial in California. Guess who wanted it removed? Yeah, a Jewish veterans group.
Without knowing anything about the Jewish veterans group, I am certain beyond any doubt that they're a group of atheists. Maybe Jews, but certainly atheists.
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:23 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
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Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Yeah, I completely agree with that. In the discussion in the R&S forum, I was one of the few people to defend the new law.
Actually, all of the Christians defended it ... and you, for some bizarre reason. You seem to be taking a sort of libertarian approach to the issue, but if everyone were allowed to wear their bigotry and prejudices on their sleeves, our civil society wouldn't last another day. All it would take is for a business to discriminate against the wrong person and just watch the race riots sprout up - making the Watts riot or the ones that spawned due to Rodney King look like children romping through a field of flowers.

I'm not at all kidding when I say that law and order would break down. This is why we need laws preventing businesses from discriminating - and if you think we're safe because the law targets gays, you're wrong. Just you wait until some crackpot business owner refuses to serve a black man, gay or not ... and watch what happens. The black community will assume, of course, that the man was refused service because he was black, not because he was gay, and wham ...

Plus, I've already torn apart the nature of the law in the thread that was closed. Perhaps it bears repeating here.

Suppose your a business owner following a religion. Doesn't really matter which one. A man walks into your shop that you suspect might be gay - so you decide to throw him out.

But here's the problem. Are you attacking the sin or the sinner? Are you actually booting the sin out of your shop? It's not as if the man is having gay sex right there in your store, so it's impossible to attack the sin. The only way you could know if someone was gay or not is through their mannerisms.

But mannerisms aren't proof. What if the man has a few gay friends and some of their mannerisms rubbed off on him? What if the man is just naturally effeminiate, perhaps because he was raised by a single mom and a gaggle of older sisters? What if the man really is gay, but is a virgin and thus, hasn't even committed the sin of homosexuality? What if he is actually gay, but is deeply religious and thus does not engage in acts of homosexuality?

And what if some big, musclely guy walks in, perhaps wearing army fatigues. What if he happens to be gay? Would you approach him and throw HIM out? Because this one isn't displaying any gay mannerisms even though he might be a flamer with dozens of male sexual partners.

At the end of the day, you're not really discriminating against the sin of homosexuality or even homosexuals. You're discriminating against behaviors and appearances. Even so, there is no possible way you can be 100% certain that the person you're about to discriminate against is, in fact, gay. Nor can you be certain that the person you're NOT discriminating against is NOT gay. Moreover, this law opens up the door for any small-minded bigot to toss anyone out of his store. Don't like someone's skin color or ethnicity? Just throw him out and pretend you thought he was gay. Simple as that.

Finally, it puts employees in a bad position. Will they be forced to discriminate on behalf of the owners? What about THEIR beliefs? What if an employee thinks discrimination is wrong? And who really wants to be the one to declare to some person (who may or may not be gay) that he or she is being denied service? Any subsequent anger will be directed toward the employee while the boss sits safely inside his office, away from the boiling rage of the victimized customer.

It's a bad law. It sucks. There's nothing at all good about it and there are lots of things bad about it. All it accomplishes is divisiveness, polarization, AND it makes Christians look like a bunch of xenophobic simpletons. What a surefire way to recruit for atheism, that's for certain.
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Old 02-23-2014, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,115,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
In fact, the last big controversy to strike was the removal of a giant 50 foot cross from a war memorial in California. Guess who wanted it removed? Yeah, a Jewish veterans group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
Without knowing anything about the Jewish veterans group, I am certain beyond any doubt that they're a group of atheists. Maybe Jews, but certainly atheists.

That is a very interesting comment, Iwish. I guess you are implying that a truly religious Jew (Orthodox or maybe Conservative) would not care if the Christians erected a huge cross on public property.

Why would the Orthodox Jews not care about the cross?
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:15 PM
 
3,964 posts, read 3,345,152 times
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A big cross would bother me none.
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,115,423 times
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Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
A big cross would bother me none.
That's a very clear answer.

I'm very curious about your opinion on the questions in my original post.
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Why would the Orthodox Jews not care about the cross?
As I Jew, I don't display crosses. But this is a not a Jewish country, so gentiles are free to display whatever symbols they want, as long as they don't force me to bow down to them.

I'm more annoyed by chabadniks displaying Menoras alongside crosses in public places.
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Lake Worth, FL
388 posts, read 316,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
I'm more annoyed by chabadniks displaying Menoras alongside crosses in public places.
I agree with this. I feel as though it feeds into the misconception that Chanukah is a really important religious holiday for us.
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:49 PM
 
864 posts, read 733,948 times
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Quote:
I agree with this. I feel as though it feeds into the misconception that Chanukah is a really important religious holiday for us.
Well, Chanuka is a really important holiday for us, and all our holidays are religious, but placing a Menora next to a cross demeans the menorah and everything it represents.
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Old 02-23-2014, 07:07 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,846 posts, read 3,357,700 times
Reputation: 4055
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
Without knowing anything about the Jewish veterans group, I am certain beyond any doubt that they're a group of atheists. Maybe Jews, but certainly atheists.
LOL! Sure, of course you would say that.

Thanks for proving my point.
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