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Old 03-16-2014, 02:32 PM
 
Location: OC/LA
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So I learned from my rabbi yesterday that orthodoxy actually was a response to the enlightenment / reform movement and was developed afterwards. Prior to that normative judaism was actually quite fluid and was able to change adapt in order to its circumstances. It wasn't until the reform came and was considered too radical that the ultra right wing rabbis out there foot down and decided nothing should change. Ever. This is why they still wear the clothing of 19th century Poles.

I was not aware of this concept because I think most orthodox try to spin the idea that they are the "original" denomination of Judaism that goes all the way back to biblical times and everyone broke off from them. When in fact this isn't true at all, it's actually more modern than reform.
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Old 03-16-2014, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Long Island
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I think a lot of us are ignorant of the history behind modern Judaism and the relationship between everything.
Just look at Judaism in the US: We focus on the Ashkenazi and all the drama and politics that exist within it, and we completely forget to look at the Sephardi, the Mizrahi, the Yemeni, and their long histories.


As far "spinning", I think all groups do it. The Orthodox aren't the only ones who try to paint themselves as the most accurate offspring of the Revelation at Sinai; I know a lot of Conservative Jews who try to argue that "traditional" Judaism operated like the USCJ's rabbinical council (even though we know it didn't).
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Old 03-16-2014, 03:40 PM
 
Location: OC/LA
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I think you're right that groups always want to spin their own ideology as otherwise they have no justification.

Another interesting schism is in the differences in pronunciation between Sephardic and Ashkenazic Hebrew. Both think they are the "correct" historical way, but in reality it was probably something different from either one.
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Old 03-16-2014, 03:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperiongap View Post
so i learned from my rabbi yesterday that orthodoxy actually was a response to the enlightenment / reform movement and was developed afterwards. Prior to that normative judaism was actually quite fluid and was able to change adapt in order to its circumstances. It wasn't until the reform came and was considered too radical that the ultra right wing rabbis out there foot down and decided nothing should change. Ever. This is why they still wear the clothing of 19th century poles.

I was not aware of this concept because i think most orthodox try to spin the idea that they are the "original" denomination of judaism that goes all the way back to biblical times and everyone broke off from them. When in fact this isn't true at all, it's actually more modern than reform.
lol.
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Old 03-16-2014, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
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Everyone knows that Moshe Rabbeinu (Moses Our Rabbi) wore black velvet yarmulke, white collared shirt and a black suit and pants and shoes, spoke the mamaloshen (mother tongue of Yiddish), and did not hold of hechshers (kosher certifications) like OU and Tablet K. He learned in kollel (Talmudic college for married men) everyday while his wife Tzipporah worked in the field of occupational therapy to support their kids' education in yeshiva and Beis Yaakov (girl's school).

But seriously, only the ultra- and centrist Orthodox will deny that there was a hardening of Ashkenazi Orthodox Judaism after the growth of Reform and Conservative Judaism.
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Old 03-16-2014, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Long Island
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Originally Posted by HyperionGap View Post
I think you're right that groups always want to spin their own ideology as otherwise they have no justification.

Another interesting schism is in the differences in pronunciation between Sephardic and Ashkenazic Hebrew. Both think they are the "correct" historical way, but in reality it was probably something different from either one.
Without a doubt. The Askenazi dialect is was heavily influenced by the Germanic sounds native to the region, and I'm sure the Sephardic was the same. My rabbi tells a story about a professor he had in rabbinical school who insisted they use the archaic "w" sound for vav and "th" for tav, and would take off points if they didn't.

But what is interesting is how the two grew apart. The Jews in Spain and the Middle East often saw long periods of peace and lived among their non-Jewish neighbors. The Ashkenazi, on the other hand, were terrorized often and forced to live shut off from the general population for so long that many still romanticize the idea and hold it out as the ideal.
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Old 03-16-2014, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
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It's more likely that Mizrachi Hebrew is closer to the original Hebrew, because it preserves most of the distinctions between Hebrew letters that no longer exist in Modern Israeli Hebrew, like between tet and tav, ayin and aleph, etc.
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Old 03-16-2014, 09:47 PM
 
864 posts, read 733,356 times
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Quote:
So I learned from my rabbi yesterday that orthodoxy actually was a response to the enlightenment / reform movement and was developed afterwards. Prior to that normative judaism was actually quite fluid and was able to change adapt in order to its circumstances. It wasn't until the reform came and was considered too radical that the ultra right wing rabbis out there foot down and decided nothing should change. Ever. This is why they still wear the clothing of 19th century Poles.
And you swallowed what your Rabbi told you hook, line and sinker. Now ask your Rabbi exactly what was fluid in Judaism and in what ways did Judaism 'adapt' before reform came onto the scene.
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Old 03-17-2014, 12:55 AM
 
Location: OC/LA
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Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
And you swallowed what your Rabbi told you hook, line and sinker. Now ask your Rabbi exactly what was fluid in Judaism and in what ways did Judaism 'adapt' before reform came onto the scene.
So you're saying I shouldn't trust what my rabbi has to say? Guess I shouldn't trust what any rabbis for that matter.


Regardless, if you could please link me an article on the changes in Judaism and how it adapted over time, I'm more than happy to read it. Can't be too long though, nothing more than ~ 50 pages.

Last edited by HyperionGap; 03-17-2014 at 01:04 AM..
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Old 03-17-2014, 06:37 AM
 
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Hyperion, let me give you an alternate suggestion. Instead of focusing on all the changes (because they are all dead ends), focus on what has stayed consistent for the last 3300 years. That's a recipe for Olam Haba (the world to come).
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