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Old 03-21-2014, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
939 posts, read 1,260,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Now that is emes!

Does anybody disagree with JB on this point? If not, this is the starting point of all posters refraining from correcting other posters pronunciations and usage of Yiddish, Aramaic, etc. yes?
If Hebrew pronunciation, like the eating of kitniyot* during Passover, is a matter of minhag (custom), then yes, God would care which Hebrew pronunciation you use. The question is whether you should choose your Hebrew pronunciation based on a.) your family ancestry b.) the Jewish community you're living in c.) Zionism or d.) your personal choice.




*kitniyot: literally: "little things" (Hebrew), refers to a group of foods that the Ashkenazi community forbids eating during Passover, in addition to the prohibition against chametz (leavened bread). The historical reason for this prohibition was that some of these foods resembled or were grown near grain and could easily be mistaken for or contaminated with prohibited grains. Examples of kitniyot include peanuts, corn, soy, rice, and in the ultra-Orthodox community, quinoa. Non-Ashkenazi Jews including Sephardic Jews do not follow the prohibition against kitniyot and therefore eat things like rice and peas during Passover.
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Old 03-21-2014, 11:16 AM
 
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I'm not sure pronunciation and kitniyos are comparable items. With Kitniyos, the Shulchan Orech says they are forbidden (for Ashkenazim). I can't think of a way around that. The big joke in my shul, is that we want to become Sephardim at Pesach time. And the response to that is then we'd have to say selichos for 30 days if we did (which the Sephardim all do at Pesach time).

I've never heard of any requirements to pronounce words with any particular accent. So that does not appear to be a halachic issue. Of course constantly criticizing your fellow Jew for their pronunciation is a big halachic issue, or at least an issue of derek eretz.
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Old 03-22-2014, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,353 posts, read 24,079,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post

I've never heard of any requirements to pronounce words with any particular accent. So that does not appear to be a halachic issue.....

There is no requirement to pronounce words in a certain way. The requirement is to use the the same custom consistently. If one is speaking to a mixed group, then the custom used is the one used by the majority of the attendees and not the speaker (Hence a majority of the attendees on CD use American English, then that is the custom to follow).

Thus if it's the custom to use sav instead of a tav because its missing the dot in the center and to pronounce a kametz (hebrew vowel the looks like a "+" with the vertical line removed above the horizontal line) as a "a" or an "o" then it needs to be consistently used without regard to Yiddish, Spoken Hebrew or Biblical Hebrew.


Hebrew letters: tav, sav
Torah Tots - The Site for Jewish Children - All About the Hebrew Alphabet


FWIW
Mingling Yinglish, Yiddish, Hebrew and English in the same sentence has nothing to do with pronunciation.
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Old 03-23-2014, 07:10 AM
 
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Jack Abramowitz in his latest article in the OU Jewish Action beings up an interesting point. By the Sephardim, a beis is different than a veis. A kaf is different than a chaf. A pei is different than a fei. So why shouldn't a taf be different from a saf? They all have the same dagesh.

Bottom line, both Rav Moshe Feinstein (in Orach Chaim 3:5) and some random cranky former Ger chasid in our illustrious forum here agree that both pronunciations of tav and sav are halachically correct.

Good thread. We came to some nice consensus.
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Old 03-23-2014, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,353 posts, read 24,079,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
...

Rav Moshe Feinstein (in Orach Chaim 3:5) ....

If you're going to quote someone, at a minimum give the entire location of it: Igrot Moshe Orach Chaim 3:5. And just maybe give a link to the article you took the information from.


Quote:
One who has a family tradition of using Ashkenazi or Sephardi pronunciation of Hebrew should not veer from that tradition when praying.
Fighting the Taf Guys - Jewish Action
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Old 03-23-2014, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
939 posts, read 1,260,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Jack Abramowitz in his latest article in the OU Jewish Action beings up an interesting point. By the Sephardim, a beis is different than a veis. A kaf is different than a chaf. A pei is different than a fei. So why shouldn't a taf be different from a saf? They all have the same dagesh.

Bottom line, both Rav Moshe Feinstein (in Orach Chaim 3:5) and some random cranky former Ger chasid in our illustrious forum here agree that both pronunciations of tav and sav are halachically correct.

Good thread. We came to some nice consensus.
The tav without a dagesh was originally pronounced "th". Which is why it's sometimes transliterated like that: "Agudath Israel", "Beth El", etc. When Modern Hebrew came about, the Ashkenazim couldn't pronounce "th" along with "chet" and "ayin" and therefore thav became simply "tav".
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Old 11-24-2018, 08:50 PM
 
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Very interesting. . . I always thought the use of "Beth ______" as a synagogue name was an Anglicizaton, but actually it turns out to be a correct transliteration. It all makes some sense, in that the German influence in Ashkhenazic Hebrew and Yiddish would change the "th" to an "s" sound, as in German, the word "Theater" is pronounced "Teyata" and "Apotheke" as "Apoteyke." (I know some German and "th" is not a sound "die Deutschen" readily pronounce.) However, why is there no distinction made between Tav (w/ dagesh) and Thav/Sav (w/o dagesh) in modern Hebrew and in the generally used Sephardi pronunciation of sacred texts? Also, do any Hebrew speakers still use the "th" sound in pronouncing Hebrew in any context? It seems a poor decision to eliminate any distinction between "Tav" and "Thav/Sav." I also note that there would appear to be a connection between the Greek theta and the Hebrew "Thav/Sav,"e.g., both above-cited German words are of Greek origin. Has any linguist ever made that point?
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