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Old 11-14-2015, 10:53 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
where did you read this? what is the source? we are curious to see what other religion or group or agenda is claiming what you read
it does not sound like a Jewish source
The distinction is important and necessary because this is the Judaism forum
for an "all religions, all views" approach to the topic, that would happen in the Religion and Spirituality section instead of the Judaism forum.
Midrash 1: The Torah was created before the events discussed in the beginning of the Torah. (Actually, according to the midrash it is one of five things created before those events)

Midrash 2: The souls of all Jews, present and future, were at Mt. Sinai and said "Naaseh v'nishmah" (we will do and understand) and observed the miraculous events there.

- https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...0174045AAKYDXI
Midrash 2- the souls of all Jews, present and future, were present at Mt. Sinai and accepted the Torah. This principal is illustrated very clearly in the Talmud in masechta Nedarim where it states that any neder (vow) not to perform a mitzvah (commandment from the Torah) is automatically invalid since every Jew has a prior neder in effect from Sinai obligating them to observe the Torah.


So, if the Midrash states that all Jews were present at Mt. Sinai, present and future, and accepted the Torah then that would conclude that all Jews should be able to trace their lineage back to Mt. Sinai...
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Old 11-14-2015, 10:58 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
Understood -- but hasn't that question been answered and then reposted, indicating that the OP has in mind a different topic?
No...I do not have in mind a different topic...To get to the truth, there needs to be discussion...Some believe one is only a Jew by blood, as in tracing your lineage all the way back to Mt. Sinai, while others believe that it is by faith, which would include the Gentile who observes HaShem's Sabbath and Feasts and adheres to the Torah...Both camps seem to have valid points externally, however, if the answer comes to easily, then it is not the correct answer...
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Old 11-14-2015, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Red River Texas
22,992 posts, read 10,337,131 times
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I think the seed of God have almost always been built different. That Adam, and Seth, and Shem, and Abraham, and Jacob were different than other people. I mean that a person like myself believes in God and I begin to study the word and after a while, a seed is implanted within me, and I begin to raise that seed.

But that the seed of God has always had their seed from the beginning whereas a gentile would have to convert and believe in God through faith and then maybe he was given a seed. Like a seed planted in an animal as if this body is just flesh that came from this world, but people have a different kind of seed that is something besides human, and something that is immortal, a piece of God.

A human carrying a seed of God that would make him something besides just a human child, but an alien child is there also, and he will go on to other worlds.

I don't know, may sound like a bunch of hogwash, but I have always considered that the chosen people who carried the seed of God through the generations were not like other humans, that they were built and born something different, that maybe they even existed before this world was created, and they will exist well after this world is ended.
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Old 11-14-2015, 04:42 PM
 
Location: NJ
2,675 posts, read 1,253,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Midrash 1: The Torah was created before the events discussed in the beginning of the Torah. (Actually, according to the midrash it is one of five things created before those events)

Midrash 2: The souls of all Jews, present and future, were at Mt. Sinai and said "Naaseh v'nishmah" (we will do and understand) and observed the miraculous events there.

- https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...0174045AAKYDXI
Midrash 2- the souls of all Jews, present and future, were present at Mt. Sinai and accepted the Torah. This principal is illustrated very clearly in the Talmud in masechta Nedarim where it states that any neder (vow) not to perform a mitzvah (commandment from the Torah) is automatically invalid since every Jew has a prior neder in effect from Sinai obligating them to observe the Torah.


So, if the Midrash states that all Jews were present at Mt. Sinai, present and future, and accepted the Torah then that would conclude that all Jews should be able to trace their lineage back to Mt. Sinai...
The souls were all there. Clearly there is no claim that the people in a physical form were all there. The souls had yet to be born. Simply being present at the revelation of Sinai doesn't mean that there is an ancestral line that can be traced. You are drawing an erroneous and illogical inference.
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Old 11-14-2015, 04:57 PM
 
22,007 posts, read 19,112,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Midrash 2: The souls of all Jews, present and future, were at Mt. Sinai and said "Naaseh v'nishmah" (we will do and understand) and observed the miraculous events there.

So, if the Midrash states that all Jews were present at Mt. Sinai, present and future, and accepted the Torah then that would conclude that all Jews should be able to trace their lineage back to Mt. Sinai...
the souls of all Jews were there at Har Sinai, present and future, which means some were there in physical bodies, and some were there in spirit form but not in a physical body, because they would be born into physical bodies in the future generations; also at Har Sinai were all the souls of future converts not yet born. Judaism encompasses reincarnation and conversion so those souls can be born at any time into any person of any nation of any culture or ethnicity.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 11-14-2015 at 05:06 PM..
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Old 11-15-2015, 08:22 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
The souls were all there. Clearly there is no claim that the people in a physical form were all there. The souls had yet to be born. Simply being present at the revelation of Sinai doesn't mean that there is an ancestral line that can be traced. You are drawing an erroneous and illogical inference.
Depends on how you define "soul"...
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Old 11-15-2015, 08:27 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
and from a post of your own, this is good suggestion:


we learn Judaism by studying and practicing Judaism, not by learning other religions, [b]not by arguing with non-Jews
, not by studying alone on our own, rather we learn in community with other Jews and FREQUENTLY consult qualified rabbinic sources.[/quote]

Moderator cut: deleted

Last edited by june 7th; 11-15-2015 at 09:18 AM.. Reason: not pertaining to topic
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Old 11-15-2015, 08:28 AM
 
Location: NJ
2,675 posts, read 1,253,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
How about being born into another religion?...
Yes, as written, "also at Har Sinai were all the souls of future converts not yet born. Judaism encompasses reincarnation and conversion so those souls can be born at any time into any person of any nation of any culture or ethnicity."

Converts would be those who were born into another religion.
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Old 11-15-2015, 08:29 AM
 
Location: NJ
2,675 posts, read 1,253,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Depends on how you define "soul"...
Not how I define. How Judaism does. There is ample literature on the various levels of soul within Jewish thought.
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Old 11-15-2015, 08:30 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 21,941,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
Yes, as written, "also at Har Sinai were all the souls of future converts not yet born. Judaism encompasses reincarnation and conversion so those souls can be born at any time into any person of any nation of any culture or ethnicity."

Converts would be those who were born into another religion.
Re-read her post...
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