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Old 05-18-2016, 04:26 AM
 
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I have been reading some in Daniel 9, and I wonder what your view is on the weeks after the rebuilding of the Temple and before the arrival of the anointed king that are described by the angel Gabriel in his vision? Do you believe that the anointed king is the promised Mashiach?

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed upon your people and upon the city of your Sanctuary to terminate the transgression and to end sin, and to expiate iniquity, and to bring eternal righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.

Daniel 9:25 And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times.

When I read the part of the 'coming monarch' in verse 26 I think it's about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD, but if that is true then the anointed one would've come before that. How do you guys view this destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple that will come after the rebuilding by king Cyrus?

Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.


Shalom
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Old 05-18-2016, 04:30 AM
 
Location: NJ
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A comprehensive anti-missionary counter-missionary book - 7. The L-RD'S Anointed

Scroll about a third of the way down for an interesting discussion.
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:03 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
A comprehensive anti-missionary counter-missionary book - 7. The L-RD'S Anointed

Scroll about a third of the way down for an interesting discussion.

He is being slick isn't he?
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
A comprehensive anti-missionary counter-missionary book - 7. The L-RD'S Anointed

Scroll about a third of the way down for an interesting discussion.

So as far as I can read, the view expressed is Cyrus is the anointed king? It says in the original text 'Mashiach', which is anointed and could refer to Cyrus indeed, since in Isaiah he is called anointed. But as many prophecies have different layers, it can also refer to the promised deliverer of Israel. Also they were still oppressed even after the decree of Cyrus to rebuild the temple and city, until king Darius was called to help and reissued the decree. And they finished it according to Ezra 6 after the decree of Cyrus, Darius and Artaxerxes.

Ezra 6:14 And the elders of the Jews were building and succeeding with the prophecy of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah, the son of Iddo, and they built and founded it by the command of the God of Israel and by the command of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes, the king of Persia.


The reinstating of Israel was actually completed by Artaxerxes, who finally allowed all the Jews remaining to go back to Jerusalem freely and gave a decree in which he gave them many resources to rebuild and did not allow oppression any longer. Read the entire chapter if you're interested, Ezra 7:13 An order is issued by me that whoever of my kingdom of the people of Israel, its priests and Levites, who volunteers to go to Jerusalem with you, may go.


In Daniel it says that after 7 + 62 weeks Mashiach will be cut off, many scholars agree that in the context 1 week refers to a period of 7 years. If this line of interpretation is followed then the timespan totals 490 years. If you start from the time Artexerxes commanded Jerusalem to be rebuilt, (+/- 458 BC) and add 490 years then Daniel says we should arrive at the time the Mashiach would be cut off, or in other words, killed.


Also Zechariah mentions the coming of a King, but he prophesied this after the temple was rebuilt, to encourage the remnant that returned from exile.


Zechariah 9:9 Be exceedingly happy, O daughter of Zion; Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem. Behold! Your king shall come to you. He is just and victorious; humble, and riding a donkey and a foal, the offspring of [one of] she-donkeys.



Which Rashi interprets as being about the Messiah: Behold! Your king shall come to you: It is impossible to interpret this except as referring to the King Messiah, as it is stated: “and his rule shall be from sea to sea.” We do not find that Israel had such a ruler during the days of the Second Temple.



So that coming of a King was still relevant even after king Cyrus, who was not the Messiah appearantly, because Zecheriah prophesies He is still to come. Also Daniel says that Mashiach will be cut off, and interestingly Yeshayahu uses those same words (which I believe refers to the death of Mashiach) as Daniel did when he prophesied that he will be 'cut off' . Yeshayahu 53:8 From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them. What do you think the cutting off means in both Daniel and Yeshayahu? And I am not here to be slick, I have my own views. But I honestly like to hear your views, and I have a tremendous love for the Jewish people.


Shalom
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:04 AM
 
Location: NJ
2,670 posts, read 1,246,953 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
So as far as I can read, the view expressed is Cyrus is the anointed king? It says in the original text 'Mashiach', which is anointed and could refer to Cyrus indeed, since in Isaiah he is called anointed. But as many prophecies have different layers, it can also refer to the promised deliverer of Israel. Also they were still oppressed even after the decree of Cyrus to rebuild the temple and city, until king Darius was called to help and reissued the decree. And they finished it according to Ezra 6 after the decree of Cyrus, Darius and Artaxerxes.

Ezra 6:14 And the elders of the Jews were building and succeeding with the prophecy of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah, the son of Iddo, and they built and founded it by the command of the God of Israel and by the command of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes, the king of Persia.


The reinstating of Israel was actually completed by Artaxerxes, who finally allowed all the Jews remaining to go back to Jerusalem freely and gave a decree in which he gave them many resources to rebuild and did not allow oppression any longer. Read the entire chapter if you're interested, Ezra 7:13 An order is issued by me that whoever of my kingdom of the people of Israel, its priests and Levites, who volunteers to go to Jerusalem with you, may go.


In Daniel it says that after 7 + 62 weeks Mashiach will be cut off, many scholars agree that in the context 1 week refers to a period of 7 years. If this line of interpretation is followed then the timespan totals 490 years. If you start from the time Artexerxes commanded Jerusalem to be rebuilt, (+/- 458 BC) and add 490 years then Daniel says we should arrive at the time the Mashiach would be cut off, or in other words, killed.


Also Zechariah mentions the coming of a King, but he prophesied this after the temple was rebuilt, to encourage the remnant that returned from exile.


Zechariah 9:9 Be exceedingly happy, O daughter of Zion; Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem. Behold! Your king shall come to you. He is just and victorious; humble, and riding a donkey and a foal, the offspring of [one of] she-donkeys.



Which Rashi interprets as being about the Messiah: Behold! Your king shall come to you: It is impossible to interpret this except as referring to the King Messiah, as it is stated: “and his rule shall be from sea to sea.” We do not find that Israel had such a ruler during the days of the Second Temple.



So that coming of a King was still relevant even after king Cyrus, who was not the Messiah appearantly, because Zecheriah prophesies He is still to come. Also Daniel says that Mashiach will be cut off, and interestingly Yeshayahu uses those same words (which I believe refers to the death of Mashiach) as Daniel did when he prophesied that he will be 'cut off' . Yeshayahu 53:8 From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them. What do you think the cutting off means in both Daniel and Yeshayahu? And I am not here to be slick, I have my own views. But I honestly like to hear your views, and I have a tremendous love for the Jewish people.


Shalom
One point you make is vitally important -- many statements have more than one understanding or potential application. So the text/math can be computed to refer to one person, and still be applicable to others.

I have seen other Jewish interpretations which start and end the timing differently and come up with different objects of the section. Here is a talk about it (I haven't listened, but I read stuff from this person about this, years ago) https://outreachjudaism.org/daniel-n...0-weeks-audio/

I assume that this chart helps https://outreachjudaism.org/dan-chart/

and here are some other discussions
calendar - The 70 weeks in Daniel 9 - Mi Yodeya

-------------additional thought--------------

it might help you to understand the role of the book of Daniel in the Jewish schema. It is not seen as a book of prophecy (messianic or otherwise) but one of the writings. That distinction is not trivial and colors how people use the text.

Last edited by rosends; 05-18-2016 at 09:45 AM..
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Old 07-22-2016, 05:58 AM
 
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There was another response here which I wanted to reply to.. where did it go?!
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