How do we know that thr Tanakh has not been tampered with?... (believe, Bible)
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You don't KNOW anything. There are some arguments that you either find convincing or you don't. The Orthodox argument is often called the "Kuzari Argument." Look up Rabbi Lawrence Keleman. He has written several books and has done several youtube lectures about it. Basically, it says that we know the Torah (and Oral Torah) are perfect because there was a national revelation at Mt. Sinai and that tradition has been passed down from father to son for 3,000 years unbroken. It would be impossible to suddenly introduce such a story at a random point in history because your parents would say it's all BS 'cause they never heard of it. That makes it different from an individual prophet's revelation where you just have to trust him when he says that God spoke to him in a vision. This is then followed up with the idea that every Torah scroll today is carefully matched to prior Torah's letter-for-letter. Therefore, this is continuing the Tradition of perfect transmission to the next generation. (Also, based on Deuteronomy 17 where it says to obey the "judges in your time", we're supposedly able to rely on perfect rabbinic councils to have decided on the rest of the later books.)
This is problematic though because the rest of Tanakh after Torah is basically a long explanation of how virtually all the Jews forgot about Moses (Judges Chapter 2) and generally ignored the prophets for hundreds of years until after the Babylonian exile when Ezra sets them straight. (Nehemiah chapter 8) So you could easily speculate that a powerful leader like Ezra just imposed his view of history by selectively choosing the texts that he liked. Additionally, we know that there were slightly variant version of the Tanakh, one of which was the Septuagint and the Masoretic text is another (which we use today.) The totally secular position would go as far as to say that it's all just made up as a way to control the population.
I personally believe in the middle road. The famous Rabbi Heschel said that the Bible is a work of both God and Man. That is also the position of Conservative Judaism. I agree. I believe that the prophets have predicted highly unlikely things that have already come true or appear ready to come true. And that the Bible is an amazing work that contains timeless moral truths despite the fact that it was written during such barbaric and ancient periods.
However, I don't believe the Bible is letter-for-letter perfect. I find many of the tenets of the Documentary Hypothesis to be convincing. It is taught as a fact in all secular universities and in Conservative and Reform Rabbinical schools. Combine that with comments in the earliest rabbinic literature that Ezra the Scribe had a role in finalizing the text after the Babylonian Exile, and it is hard to completely ignore it. God did make imperfect people after all, including his chosen messengers. So it's not outlandish to propose that the message itself might have gotten a little garbled. Accepting that isn't an excuse to throw it all away; it just makes things a little hazier.
Last edited by slapshotbob99; 02-27-2017 at 10:02 PM..
You don't KNOW anything. There are some arguments that you either find convincing or you don't. The Orthodox argument is often called the "Kuzari Argument." Look up Rabbi Lawrence Keleman. He has written several books and has done several youtube lectures about it. Basically, it says that we know the Torah (and Oral Torah) are perfect because there was a national revelation at Mt. Sinai and that tradition has been passed down from father to son for 3,000 years unbroken. It would be impossible to suddenly introduce such a story at a random point in history because your parents would say it's all BS 'cause they never heard of it. That makes it different from an individual prophet's revelation where you just have to trust him when he says that God spoke to him in a vision. This is then followed up with the idea that every Torah scroll today is carefully matched to prior Torah's letter-for-letter. Therefore, this is continuing the Tradition of perfect transmission to the next generation. (Also, based on Deuteronomy 17 where it says to obey the "judges in your time", we're supposedly able to rely on perfect rabbinic councils to have decided on the rest of the later books.)
This is problematic though because the rest of Tanakh after Torah is basically a long explanation of how virtually all the Jews forgot about Moses (Judges Chapter 2) and generally ignored the prophets for hundreds of years until after the Babylonian exile when Ezra sets them straight. (Nehemiah chapter 8) So you could easily speculate that a powerful leader like Ezra just imposed his view of history by selectively choosing the texts that he liked. Additionally, we know that there were slightly variant version of the Tanakh, one of which was the Septuagint and the Masoretic text is another (which we use today.) The totally secular position would go as far as to say that it's all just made up as a way to control the population.
I personally believe in the middle road. The famous Rabbi Heschel said that the Bible is a work of both God and Man. That is also the position of Conservative Judaism. I agree. I believe that the prophets have predicted highly unlikely things that have already come true or appear ready to come true. And that the Bible is an amazing work that contains timeless moral truths despite the fact that it was written during such barbaric and ancient periods.
However, I don't believe the Bible is letter-for-letter perfect. I find many of the tenets of the Documentary Hypothesis to be convincing. It is taught as a fact in all secular universities and in Conservative and Reform Rabbinical schools. Combine that with comments in the earliest rabbinic literature that Ezra the Scribe had a role in finalizing the text after the Babylonian Exile, and it is hard to completely ignore it. God did make imperfect people after all, including his chosen messengers. So it's not outlandish to propose that the message itself might have gotten a little garbled. Accepting that isn't an excuse to throw it all away; it just makes things a little hazier.
You don't KNOW anything. There are some arguments that you either find convincing or you don't. The Orthodox argument is often called the "Kuzari Argument." Look up Rabbi Lawrence Keleman. He has written several books and has done several youtube lectures about it. Basically, it says that we know the Torah (and Oral Torah) are perfect because there was a national revelation at Mt. Sinai and that tradition has been passed down from father to son for 3,000 years unbroken. It would be impossible to suddenly introduce such a story at a random point in history because your parents would say it's all BS 'cause they never heard of it. That makes it different from an individual prophet's revelation where you just have to trust him when he says that God spoke to him in a vision. This is then followed up with the idea that every Torah scroll today is carefully matched to prior Torah's letter-for-letter. Therefore, this is continuing the Tradition of perfect transmission to the next generation. (Also, based on Deuteronomy 17 where it says to obey the "judges in your time", we're supposedly able to rely on perfect rabbinic councils to have decided on the rest of the later books.)
This is problematic though because the rest of Tanakh after Torah is basically a long explanation of how virtually all the Jews forgot about Moses (Judges Chapter 2) and generally ignored the prophets for hundreds of years until after the Babylonian exile when Ezra sets them straight. (Nehemiah chapter 8) So you could easily speculate that a powerful leader like Ezra just imposed his view of history by selectively choosing the texts that he liked. Additionally, we know that there were slightly variant version of the Tanakh, one of which was the Septuagint and the Masoretic text is another (which we use today.) The totally secular position would go as far as to say that it's all just made up as a way to control the population.
I personally believe in the middle road. The famous Rabbi Heschel said that the Bible is a work of both God and Man. That is also the position of Conservative Judaism. I agree. I believe that the prophets have predicted highly unlikely things that have already come true or appear ready to come true. And that the Bible is an amazing work that contains timeless moral truths despite the fact that it was written during such barbaric and ancient periods.
However, I don't believe the Bible is letter-for-letter perfect. I find many of the tenets of the Documentary Hypothesis to be convincing. It is taught as a fact in all secular universities and in Conservative and Reform Rabbinical schools. Combine that with comments in the earliest rabbinic literature that Ezra the Scribe had a role in finalizing the text after the Babylonian Exile, and it is hard to completely ignore it. God did make imperfect people after all, including his chosen messengers. So it's not outlandish to propose that the message itself might have gotten a little garbled. Accepting that isn't an excuse to throw it all away; it just makes things a little hazier.
So, what are you saying?...Jesus Christ could have been the Mashiach?...
Me?...I am asking because of what was posted on another thread...So, calm down...
Sorry. I didn't mean specifically you-you. I meant it in the generic rhetorical "you." As in people generally. Most people seem to mix up "know" and "believe" constantly. This seems especially bad when talking about religion and ancient history.
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