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Ah! Duly noted. Thank you. Might I deserve the same reaction now too as I try to better explain myself?
Another reason I focused on you with my question(s) is because you seem better educated than most and able to hold up your end of an argument/discussion when others are more likely to simply avoid the likes altogether, for reasons somewhat obvious from my perspective...
Well you do tend to go a little overboard typing long responses taking your time to actually get to the point.
I currently have 17 bookcases in my house that covers numerous topics and have enough books in boxes to probably fill another 10 bookcases. Add to that there are 100's of books that are not in English (Hebrew, Yiddish, Arabic, French plus a few others) and can read/speak around 14 languages plus numerous dialects of each. So if you add this to over four decades of travel, I do have a perspective that is more than others. My perspective even in this forum is different, than nearly all the posters that are here. I think I'm the only one here who is not Ashkenazi. As many people in this forum know, I'm a past Chassid who left that world to see the real world. So over the years I've run the gamut from being Ultra Orthodox to Conservative light secular. Religiously wise, for your perspective, I'm a mixture of Pharisees, Sadducees & Essenes.
FYI: I got the other thread re-opened, so we can continue there when you're ready. Tread lightly as I'm waiting to find out the items that were reported and thus find out the off limit parts that were considered outside of the gray area.
resources having to do with forgiveness: I'm Sorry
In the Rambam's list of the 613, three jump out as relevant:
Not to cherish hatred in one's heart (Lev. 19:17) (CCN78). See Love and Brotherhood.
Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN80).
Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN81).
Yes. Thank you. I was hoping the appeal toward forgiveness and honesty might help regain some traction here, and so it seems the case since I signed off yesterday. Thanks for your response to that effect.
Now, let me try this again, nice and slow like and as word-efficiently as possible...
Not sure what you mean by "defines a Jew." Using the English language as an unlikely basis for your communication, a Jew is someone who has a Jewish mother, or has converted in accordance with Jewish law.
If, on the other hand, you are asking why we believe what we believe in the areas of religion, spirituality and morality, the obvious Jewish answer is "Why not?"
I have always found this "take" interesting and a little difficult to accept...
My father and mother were who and what they were/are, but this is not how I define who I am. Our progress as a people is in many ways had by deciding who and what we are based on what we think is right or wrong, true or false, objectively, not primarily where we were born or who are parents may have been.
Someone else wrote that "we've learned the 613 rules to thrive to live by." To my way of thinking, this is another way of describing what "defines a Jew." Again, something of a challenge for me to understand or easily accept, not critical thinking in any case.
The same way you can believe what you do with certainty in the face of so many who disagree.
Is it really that difficult for you to understand why people hold beliefs other than what you do?
No, and this is key...
What I believe is essentially what is considered universally true, essentially not controversial like religious notions are, commonly accepted truths; what science has taught us, empirically proven and/or simply accepted as not fully known or understood yet.
Religion, on the other hand, is in no way accepted in this way all over the world. On the contrary, different faiths clash with one another in terms of the different belief systems, in no way proven in any similar fashion.
Not to understand this difference between what people of different faiths believe as compared to what are essentially universal truths, is really not to understand this important question at all. I don't know if this is intentional, a) to avoid honestly answering why someone believes so contrary to others or whether the issue is b) one of truly not understanding.
Either way, it is getting to the bottom of a) that I've always been interested in flushing out. Extremely hard to do, because I believe anyone who is honest has to admit that upbringing and indoctrination is the cause rather than any real intellectually sound rationale. I'd love to learn otherwise if otherwise can be explained in an intelligent manner.
Again, why is the Mormon father of my friend so wrong and anyone else any more right? Can't all be right, that's for sure, except those who adhere - exclusively - to universal truths, commonly accepted, as best we can know and agree about them today. For example, the Earth is NOT the center of the universe. This we all now know and agree upon. No argument, no debate, no killing one another over this universal truth!
You are confusing the words "define" and "describe." And when you start writing about describing you seem (to me, at least) to want to describe all Jews the same. Wrong. However, what looks to me like an error probably really isn't. You probably really DO mean "define;" you just don't like the Jewish definition. Nevertheless, that is what it is. We may have ideals towards which we strive, and perhaps that is what you want to talk about or know about, but whether a Jew reaches or even tries to reach those ideals, he remains a Jew. That is the outlook of Judaism.
"Define" means to set limits, to figure out who is a Jew and who isn't. The way things are, you have already been told, several times, the definition of a Jew. That definition is independent of what you think of it, what I think of it, whether you like it or not, whether it makes sense to you, whether it achieves your purposes, or whether it is what you really want to talk about.
Well you do tend to go a little overboard typing long responses taking your time to actually get to the point.
I currently have 17 bookcases in my house that covers numerous topics and have enough books in boxes to probably fill another 10 bookcases. Add to that there are 100's of books that are not in English (Hebrew, Yiddish, Arabic, French plus a few others) and can read/speak around 14 languages plus numerous dialects of each. So if you add this to over four decades of travel, I do have a perspective that is more than others. My perspective even in this forum is different, than nearly all the posters that are here. I think I'm the only one here who is not Ashkenazi. As many people in this forum know, I'm a past Chassid who left that world to see the real world. So over the years I've run the gamut from being Ultra Orthodox to Conservative light secular. Religiously wise, for your perspective, I'm a mixture of Pharisees, Sadducees & Essenes.
FYI: I got the other thread re-opened, so we can continue there when you're ready. Tread lightly as I'm waiting to find out the items that were reported and thus find out the off limit parts that were considered outside of the gray area.
One might say this comment is a tad bit insulting, but no matter...
I will admit I have always enjoyed writing, and apparently I can do so much faster than others, but I also admire concise writing (even if this isn't always so apparent). I often feel the need to explain to a point that eliminates any doubt about what point or argument I'm trying to make, but again no matter, people more often than not don't seem to focus or comprehend in a way that doesn't require another go-around, like I'm still doing here in this thread.
With all due respect you might consider that you too used a few too many words simply to confirm what I already pointed out, that you are well educated, about certain subjects in any case. Suffice to say perhaps as well, I haven't exactly just been watching cartoons all my life either...
How did you get the other thread re-opened? Not sure I am comfortable with this sense of who decides what should be read or not, opened or closed, but of course this is not my forum. I prefer this thread to the other one when it comes to the question of why people believe what they do. People here seem interested in an honest and truthful discussion. Too many other threads are just too full of meaningless bumper sticker comments that tend only to frustrate and disappoint.
What I believe is essentially what is considered universally true, essentially not controversial like religious notions are, commonly accepted truths; what science has taught us, empirically proven and/or simply accepted as not fully known or understood yet.
Religion, on the other hand, is in no way accepted in this way all over the world. On the contrary, different faiths clash with one another in terms of the different belief systems, in no way proven in any similar fashion.
Not to understand this difference between what people of different faiths believe as compared to what are essentially universal truths, is really not to understand this important question at all. I don't know if this is intentional, a) to avoid honestly answering why someone believes so contrary to others or whether the issue is b) one of truly not understanding.
Either way, it is getting to the bottom of a) that I've always been interested in flushing out. Extremely hard to do, because I believe anyone who is honest has to admit that upbringing and indoctrination is the cause rather than any real intellectually sound rationale. I'd love to learn otherwise if otherwise can be explained in an intelligent manner.
Again, why is the Mormon father of my friend so wrong and anyone else any more right? Can't all be right, that's for sure, except those who adhere - exclusively - to universal truths, commonly accepted, as best we can know and agree about them today. For example, the Earth is NOT the center of the universe. This we all now know and agree upon. No argument, no debate, no killing one another over this universal truth!
There are several problems with your rational. The first being that you seem to want to pit science against religion, when in reality there is no conflict for billions of theists. Second, there are millions of converts to the various religions of the world, including myself, who contidict your claim of "upbringing and indoctrination". Third, who says the Mormon is wrong? Judaism isn't a universal religion that teaches it's our way or the highway (or hell, if you're a Christian ).
So far, you're the only one here claiming to have the "real" truth.
I have always found this "take" interesting and a little difficult to accept...
My father and mother were who and what they were/are, but this is not how I define who I am. Our progress as a people is in many ways had by deciding who and what we are based on what we think is right or wrong, true or false, objectively, not primarily where we were born or who are parents may have been.
Someone else wrote that "we've learned the 613 rules to thrive to live by." To my way of thinking, this is another way of describing what "defines a Jew." Again, something of a challenge for me to understand or easily accept, not critical thinking in any case.
You are confusing the words "define" and "describe." And when you start writing about describing you seem (to me, at least) to want to describe all Jews the same. Wrong. However, what looks to me like an error probably really isn't. You probably really DO mean "define;" you just don't like the Jewish definition. Nevertheless, that is what it is. We may have ideals towards which we strive, and perhaps that is what you want to talk about or know about, but whether a Jew reaches or even tries to reach those ideals, he remains a Jew. That is the outlook of Judaism.
"Define" means to set limits, to figure out who is a Jew and who isn't. The way things are, you have already been told, several times, the definition of a Jew. That definition is independent of what you think of it, what I think of it, whether you like it or not, whether it makes sense to you, whether it achieves your purposes, or whether it is what you really want to talk about.
Hmm...
I'm not sure where the confusion may be, but part of the issue in any case is how people come to define themselves. I posted somewhere before that I have a certain ethnic background, immigrant parents, religious upbringing, but if you were to ask me the open question, "how do you define yourself," I think my first inclination would be to answer I am an American, because that's where I live, what my passport says.
Maybe husband and father next...
I don't first think about where my mother was born or culture she was born into, religion she practiced, God she worshipped! Should I? Should anyone necessarily? That's a personal choice. A decision as to what defines us, whether a Jew or not a Jew. Right?
I am curious about people who first and foremost define themselves in other ways, almost as if wanting to promote a difference about them over others, excluding others and/or emphasizing a type of difference from others, somewhat discriminatory you might say, more of the "us vs them" sort of mentality (that I feel religion tends to breed at all our expense).
Hard to know other than to ask someone WHY they define themselves the way they do. In what context becomes the next issue, or again back to the essential question as to why people BELIEVE what they do?
Obviously, you ask someone where they were born, that's one answer. What is their nationality? Their religion? Their cultural heritage? Their race, etc, etc..., all different answers and/or ways to "define" ourselves.
Why do some people consider any of those answers in particular what "defines" them over the others? That's the question...
Maybe also even more important to me in this particular case, beyond what a Jew might think defines them, do they really believe in what the 613 commandments teach? I've read through them, I can't understand how anyone would accept or adopt them the way it seems Jews have done. For me this is as hard to understand as how Mormons have come to accept and adopt the Book of Mormon as guidance in terms of achieving our universal ideals -- as people, regardless our different backgrounds.
Can I get an amen? Or was my response here also tl;dr?
One might say this comment is a tad bit insulting, but no matter...
I will admit I have always enjoyed writing, and apparently I can do so much faster than others, but I also admire concise writing (even if this isn't always so apparent). I often feel the need to explain to a point that eliminates any doubt about what point or argument I'm trying to make, but again no matter, people more often than not don't seem to focus or comprehend in a way that doesn't require another go-around, like I'm still doing here in this thread.
With all due respect you might consider that you too used a few too many words simply to confirm what I already pointed out, that you are well educated, about certain subjects in any case. Suffice to say perhaps as well, I haven't exactly just been watching cartoons all my life either...
How did you get the other thread re-opened? Not sure I am comfortable with this sense of who decides what should be read or not, opened or closed, but of course this is not my forum. I prefer this thread to the other one when it comes to the question of why people believe what they do. People here seem interested in an honest and truthful discussion. Too many other threads are just too full of meaningless bumper sticker comments that tend only to frustrate and disappoint.
You've been answered already by another poster in this thread. Yet you still go on with the "I'm right, you're wrong" typing. So tread lightly while in this forum.
As stated earlier:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungalove
It's rather disingenuous to state "with all due respect" and then go on to call the 631 commandments "nonsense" and "ridiculous", not to mention insulting. If you choose to believe something that differs with the tenets of Judaism, that's perfectly within your rights. However, it is unkind, not to mention baseless and without merit, to come into the Judaism forum and preach that "you are wrong to believe what you do about YOUR religion."
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you might consider that you too used a few too many words simply to confirm what I already pointed out, that you are well educated, about certain subjects in any case. Suffice to say perhaps as well, I haven't exactly just been watching cartoons all my life either...