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Old 05-20-2019, 03:58 PM
 
69 posts, read 9,480 times
Reputation: 13

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob II View Post
I just mention.. Making baked meat sauce spaghetti that is prepared in heavy milk cream is wrong. I am as sure of this as I am sure that if I had a sister, I know she is prohibited to me.
The Torah even condemns these actions. I agree with it.
And my question is why? What makes you so sure if, as I mentioned above, there is absolutely no reason that comports to reality for prohibiting mixing meet and milk? What makes Torah's condemnation of this practice reasonable?
When it comes to incest, there is well established scientific explanation on why it must not be practiced.
But this issue has nothing to do with mixing meet and milk.
You convictions ("I'm as sure of this, as I'm sure of that") are nothing more, but another logical blonder - false comparison. Conclusions based on fallacious reasoning are unreliable. They can not be trusted and should be ignored.
Quote:
Common policy with Hershey, M&M Mars, just about any large candy manufacturer. They use milk in the process of chocolate. It needs a suspension of some type. They could use animal fat, but they use a vegetable source. Because with animal fat it would render the product non-Kosher.
And it is done not because candy manufacturers agree with Torah.
There is a simpler explanation.
It is done because they don't want to lose segment of their customer base for no reason.
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Old 05-20-2019, 05:47 PM
 
Location: U.S.A
52 posts, read 6,329 times
Reputation: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post


And it is done not because candy manufacturers agree with Torah.
There is a simpler explanation.
It is done because they don't want to lose segment of their customer base for no reason.
I'm not so sure about it. There is also scientific data that states the PH of meat and milk combined can cause intestinal problems. Let one digest before eating the other. Maybe a candy company does it for both reasons.

But with me it is strictly a mentality issue.

Last edited by Jacob II; 05-20-2019 at 05:57 PM..
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Old 05-20-2019, 05:58 PM
 
3,942 posts, read 3,337,959 times
Reputation: 1246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
And my question is why? What makes you so sure if, as I mentioned above, there is absolutely no reason that comports to reality for prohibiting mixing meet and milk? What makes Torah's condemnation of this practice reasonable?
When it comes to incest, there is well established scientific explanation on why it must not be practiced.
But this issue has nothing to do with mixing meet and milk.
You convictions ("I'm as sure of this, as I'm sure of that") are nothing more, but another logical blonder - false comparison. Conclusions based on fallacious reasoning are unreliable. They can not be trusted and should be ignored.

And it is done not because candy manufacturers agree with Torah.
There is a simpler explanation.
It is done because they don't want to lose segment of their customer base for no reason.
We donít follow the rules in the Torah because they make sense. Some do, some donít. But itís an irrelevant point. A person who only follows logic is on a much much lower level than someone who has a loving relationship with Hashem and follows His rules simply because they were given.
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Old 05-20-2019, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,004 posts, read 54,508,374 times
Reputation: 66349
Finding the conversation interesting. I'm not a member of the tribe. But this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
We donít follow the rules in the Torah because they make sense. Some do, some donít. But itís an irrelevant point. A person who only follows logic is on a much much lower level than someone who has a loving relationship with Hashem and follows His rules simply because they were given.


is how I as an outsider always understood it.

Not the "lower level" part. That's not for me to say.

I mean specifically the idea that the dietary laws of Torah are followed because they were given to Jews to be followed and not for any other reason, scientific or otherwise.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:22 PM
 
69 posts, read 9,480 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
A person who only follows logic is on a much much lower level than someone who has a loving relationship with Hashem and follows His rules simply because they were given.
And yet, every second of your life you live in a world where something either is or is not and where something can not be what it is and what it is not or be neither at the same time.
Nothing ever breaks these rules. Nothing! Neither for me, nor for you, nor for anybody or anything else.
Which means, that this "lower level" is all you truly have and ever will.
That "higher level" you are describing is, therefore, supremely useless. All it is good for is for creating comforting pictures and stories in your head.

But thank you for answering my question, though.
If logic does not apply or governs the Bible, then Bible is not rational. By definition.
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Old 05-21-2019, 04:42 AM
 
552 posts, read 54,304 times
Reputation: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Finding the conversation interesting. I'm not a member of the tribe. But this:

is how I as an outsider always understood it.

Not the "lower level" part. That's not for me to say.

I mean specifically the idea that the dietary laws of Torah are followed because they were given to Jews to be followed and not for any other reason, scientific or otherwise.

It is so refreshing, MQ, to see someone such as you discuss/question our laws from a position of genuinely honest curiosity and a desire to learn, rather than from a position of hostility and pretentious superiority.

The dietary laws do serve a purpose. In the words of the late Rabbi Hayim HaLevy Donin, our laws serve as "barriers to total social integration in a non-Jewish environment" and "are also barriers to intermarriage and assimilation. We find the connection between separation and kashrut [dietary laws] even more explicitly delineated in the following passage, 'I am the Lord your God who have set you apart from the nations. You shall therefore separate between the clean beast and the unclean and between the unclean fowl and the clean.' (Lev. 20:24-25)."

In the words of the late Rabbi Samuel Belkin (President of Yeshiva University): "Many attempts have been made to formulate a coherent and systematic approach to Jewish theology. All such attempts, however, have proved unsuccessful, for Judaism was never overly concerned with logical doctrines. It desired rather to evolve a corpus of practices, a code of religious acts, which would establish a mode of religious living."

In the words of the late Rabbi Seymour Siegal (Professor of Ethics and Theology at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America): "We remain Jews not because we are members of a philosophical society with superior principles (although it is a source of pride and a challenge to perpetuate and to deepen the heritage of ideas and concepts we have inherited). We remain Jews because we are part of the community of Israel, which has agreed to live its life as a separate community, for all time, in obedience to God."

And to quote Rabbi Donin once more: "Like all legal systems based upon a 'constitution' or some other body of law, it is true that halakha [Jewish law] itself often allows for differences of opinion and for differences in behavior, particularly in areas where Divine Torah Law is not affected. But all different religious decisions by authoritative, ordained scholars must be capable of justification and defense under tha halakhik rules of interpretation. It must be based on sound religious scholarship... There is a great difference between disagreeing over what it is that the Torah and the traditions require of us where questions must be resolved, and renouncing outright the authority and the jurisdiction of the Torah and its halakha... The halakha is the Jewish way for securing and perpetuating the Jewish way of life."

Last edited by Rachel NewYork; 05-21-2019 at 04:57 AM..
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:52 AM
 
69 posts, read 9,480 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
It is so refreshing, MQ, to see someone such as you discuss/question our laws from a position of genuinely honest curiosity and a desire to learn, rather than from a position of hostility and pretentious superiority.
Speaking of pretentious superiority...

Since you are obviously subscribing to this

"The halakha is the Jewish way for securing and perpetuating the Jewish way of life"

let me ask you a question -

If this is not my way of life, does it make me an inferior Jew in some way?
Or maybe you would not consider me to be a Jew at all?
So only Jews who keep kosher are "true" Jews?

Don't you see how this position can be viewed by great many as a perfect example of pretentious superiority complex?
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:20 AM
 
552 posts, read 54,304 times
Reputation: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
let me ask you a question -

If this is not my way of life, does it make me an inferior Jew in some way?
To quote our late First Lady, Eleanor Roosevelt: "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

Quote:
Or maybe you would not consider me to be a Jew at all?
Oh, are you now telling us that you're a Jew? Whoa, didn't see THAT ONE coming. That's even better than claiming that some of your best friends are Jews! I guess you now deserve a special "Jew Card" to be issued to you so that you can continue with your harassment of Jews.

Quote:
So only Jews who keep kosher are "true" Jews?
Did I say that? I don't think so. You are attempting to put words in my mouth again.

Quote:
Don't you see how this position can be viewed by great many as a perfect example of pretentious superiority complex?
Your sanctimonious atheism can be viewed by a great many as a perfect example of pretentious superiority complex.
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:11 AM
 
69 posts, read 9,480 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
Oh, are you now telling us that you're a Jew? Whoa, didn't see THAT ONE coming.
Really? Strange. I told you that much in post #106 in this very thread. Let me re-post it here for your convenience.

First - I'm as much of a Jew as you are. 98% Ashkenazi Jew according to my genetic report.
I am as Jew as they come.


Quote:
That's even better than claiming that some of your best friends are Jews! I guess you now deserve a special "Jew Card" to be issued to you so that you can continue with your harassment of Jews.
That's borderline insulting.
Questions to moderators.
Don't you think that this type of personal attack should be noted by you?
Quote:
Did I say that? I don't think so. You are attempting to put words in my mouth again.
Did you notice a question mark? Words are not being put in the mouth by questioning.
Quote:
Your sanctimonious atheism can be viewed by a great many as a perfect example of pretentious superiority complex.
I don't see how. I'm an atheist and consider myself having a moral compass.
Those two things are not connected in any way and therefore can not form any complex.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:25 PM
 
552 posts, read 54,304 times
Reputation: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
I don't see how. I'm an atheist and consider myself having a moral compass.
Those two things are not connected in any way and therefore can not form any complex.

You are an atheist preacher and your proselytizing on this forum has been couched in "questions" that you ask in order to demonstrate the supposed superiority of your non-beliefs. You have absolutely no interest in the answers you have been given for any of your "questions," and you use those only to further your agenda of confrontation.

There is NO difference between your methods and those of the religious evangelists who come onto this forum in order to confront Jews and "show" us where our beliefs are wrong and yours are right.

I think that, by now, you've been given enough rope to hang yourself. The Mods will decide whether or not to make the call.
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