U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Judaism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-10-2019, 02:29 PM
 
556 posts, read 52,589 times
Reputation: 350

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
So basically you are in the position that Jews don't and never had considered Bible to be an infallible word of god, but rather a compilation of the traditional beliefs, customs, and stories of a community of bronze edge goat-herders. Or, at very least, completely indistinguishable from such a compilation.

We are in agreement on that.
Please do not put words in my mouth. You don't know what my position is, or with whom I agree or disagree.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-10-2019, 02:43 PM
 
69 posts, read 9,449 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahayana View Post
Prager says there are very few passages that he could not find a reasonable way to understand them.
So, basically, he says, that there is nothing, that cannot be post hoc rationalized, including, but not limited to killing a disobedient child. Anyone who finds this reasonable has very strange understanding of what the reason is.

As for this quote

"But reason doesn’t tell you for what ends you should be aiming. If you want to live completely for yourself, reason will help you do that. If you want to live a life of kindness to others, reason will help you do that. But reason doesn’t tell you whether to be kind or to be self-centered. Reason just as easily argues for immoral actions as it does for moral actions."

Prager is completely and demonstrably wrong.

Reason tells us exactly what we all should be aiming for - maximum well-being of everyone.
We all rather be happy than unhappy, healthy than sick, alive than dead. This is very reasonable.
Once we agree on that, everything else falls in place and becomes objective.
We use reason to predict and evaluate the consequences of our action to see if our actions don't cause harm, don't ruin someone's well-being.
So if you are using reason to build hospital - you are fine.
But if you are using reason to build concentration camp - you are sadistic and amoral scumbag.

Not that hard, obviously. And no need for "divine guidance" either.

Last edited by Sonof; 05-10-2019 at 03:07 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2019, 03:03 PM
 
69 posts, read 9,449 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
Please do not put words in my mouth. You don't know what my position is, or with whom I agree or disagree.
I don't put words in your mouth. It just logically follows from your statement:

Quote:
I don't know of any Jews these days who hold by the stoning of disobedient children. And I somehow doubt that there were even those back in biblical times who did, either.
Bible can not be both "infallible word of god" and "set of metaphoric suggestions and traditional believes that are subject to farther interpretations" at the same time. It is deeply illogical.

So, like I said, it kind of follows...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2019, 03:25 PM
 
556 posts, read 52,589 times
Reputation: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
I don't put words in your mouth. It just logically follows from your statement:
Bible can not be both "infallible word of god" and "set of metaphoric suggestions and traditional believes that are subject to farther interpretations" at the same time. It is deeply illogical.
So, like I said, it kind of follows...

Are you familiar with paradoxes?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2019, 04:07 PM
 
69 posts, read 9,449 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
Are you familiar with paradoxes?
Yes. Paradoxes are curios mental constructs/propositions that are self-contradictory in nature.
The may prove to be well founded or even true, though.
Key word - prove.

Would you like to prove yours?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2019, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,766 posts, read 4,958,159 times
Reputation: 1499
Moses made it extreemly clear that the creation story was not to be taken literal, the things he has Adam doing in those 24 hours couldn't possibly be done in 24 hours, and then Adam has his chest opened up, it isn't meant to be taken literal.

In the 24 hours before Eve, Adam named every living thing, and he tilled the garden so long and harvested so long, that God looked down on him and decided he needed a helper.

You can't work a garden and have a harvest in a 24 hour period, and Moses was no dummy.

I would say the same with the flood, it wasn't meant to be taken literal in my opinion, although I believed it happened, I just don't believe it was water that fell.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2019, 05:07 PM
 
69 posts, read 9,449 times
Reputation: 13
And what about 613 very unambiguous commandments?
Which should be taken literally and which not?
what interpretation is correct and why?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2019, 06:43 PM
 
556 posts, read 52,589 times
Reputation: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
Yes. Paradoxes are curios mental constructs/propositions that are self-contradictory in nature.
The may prove to be well founded or even true, though.
Key word - prove.

Would you like to prove yours?

Are you are asking me to "prove" that the Bible can be both the infallible word of G-d, as well as metaphor subject to interpretation? You seem to see this as a static contradiction, whereas I see it as an interesting paradox.

One doesn't just "prove" a paradox. You can prove a contradiction, but a paradox is more than just a contradiction. For instance, consider the paradox of time: Modern physics does not recognize the concept of time as most people understand it to be, yet time nevertheless exists in human perception. Time can therefore be viewed in a literal, physical sense (as we experience time in our day-to-day lives in terms of clocks and dates), and time can also be explained in a metaphorical sense (in order to grasp the concept of time as being a separate dimension).

So how does the paradox of time apply to how one might view the Bible (or many other things that can be subject to abstract thinking)? You first need to consider that the contradictions that you perceive are possibly more compatible than you imagine them to be. You look for nuances of meaning, and attempt to expand your understanding beyond the superficial. I can't tell you how to think, and I really dislike that tired phrase of "thinking outside the box." Regardless, abstract thinking goes outside the box. Concrete thinking (which is what you seem to be doing mostly here) stops short of what appears to be "true" in the information presented. Abstract thinking involves different ways of examining and applying that presented information.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2019, 10:07 AM
 
69 posts, read 9,449 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
.
You first need to consider that the contradictions that you perceive are possibly more compatible than you imagine them to be. You look for nuances of meaning, and attempt to expand your understanding beyond the superficial.
Unfortunately, (or, rather, fortunately for me), I can not do it. This approach is unacceptable.
It sounds all sophisticated, "open minded" and "outside the box", but in fact it is nothing more but violation of basics of reason, rationality and logic.
I don't need to consider unnecessary and unjustified possibilities. In fact, I should not. It would be violation of Occam's Razor. Basic irrationality.
And looking for "nuances of meaning" while dealing with trivial contradictions is nothing more, but pseudo sophisticated attempt to post hoc justify unfounded believes.

Quote:
I can't tell you how to think, and I really dislike that tired phrase of "thinking outside the box." Regardless, abstract thinking goes outside the box. Concrete thinking (which is what you seem to be doing mostly here) stops short of what appears to be "true" in the information presented. Abstract thinking involves different ways of examining and applying that presented information.
Going down the rabbit hole of surreal reason and logic bending is not an "abstract thinking".
It is going down the rabbit hole of surreal reason and logic bending.

Adherence to what is real and logical is not a "concrete thinking".
It is an adherence to what is real and logical.
And it does not exclude abstract thinking at all.
In fact, it requires abstract thinking.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2019, 05:56 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
11,172 posts, read 10,989,569 times
Reputation: 7412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
And what about 613 very unambiguous commandments?
Which should be taken literally and which not?
what interpretation is correct and why?
You should talk to your rabbi. Every time this kind of question arises, the rabbi know how to answer.
__________________
Moderator posts are in RED.
City-Data Terms of Service: http://www.city-data.com/terms.html
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Judaism
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top