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Old 05-12-2019, 01:48 PM
 
570 posts, read 56,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
They knew that their behavior was regulated but still had questions about day to day and specific applications. They knew that God wasn't a fan of slavery but that it was a reality so it was highly regulated. They knew that certain modes of behavior were discouraged but that capital punishment, though codified was extremely difficult ever to follow through on. The argument comes from trying to iron out details and get a grasp on meanings and subtleties. It begins with a belief that the system is a unified whole and is, at its base, proper and worth buying in to. The oral law, because it was transmitted orally, left room for variants and discussion. You can either buy in or not. Your choice. But if you don't buy in, and insist on simply criticizing it from without, not only will you never learn, but you will never have any real position to critique.


If you truly want to learn about the system, I recommend https://www.amazon.com/Maimonides-In...y&sr=8-1-spell

Rabbi Rosends, how does the edition you cited above compare with this edition/translation of Maimonides work? I ask, because this one is available in a Kindle format, and I like to carry my reading material around with me when I go anywhere and need something to read.

https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Perplex...s=books&sr=1-2

Quote:
Written in the 12th century in Arabic by a faithful Jewish man, "The Guide" is a work that explores the contradiction a very intelligent mind clearly saw between the tradition he was raised to believe inherently and the growing philosophy of Arabian and Western culture. In Maimonides' time, there was an emerging disparity between the Law and a new level of philosophical sophistication, which he attempts to bridge in this work, primarily through the use of metaphor, though also acknowledging this method's limitations. "The Guide" follows the form of a three-volume letter to a student, which was quickly translated to Hebrew and spread throughout the known world and carefully read by Jews and non-Jewish philosophers alike well through the Middle Ages. This work was so successful in its organization and arguments that it has long been a classic of the Jewish religion and of the secular world of philosophy.
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Old 05-12-2019, 02:04 PM
 
Location: NJ
1,385 posts, read 494,848 times
Reputation: 591
They are two different works -- each important, but with different scopes.
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Old 05-12-2019, 03:18 PM
 
69 posts, read 9,573 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
They knew that God wasn't a fan of slavery but that it was a reality so it was highly regulated.
Here what you just said -
Omnipotent, all-knowing God, creator of the Universe and Life, The God who took Jews out of the Egypt and parted the Red See was too weak of a god to deal with a contemporary reality established by one of the life forms he created.
Among countless other similarly useless behavioral modifications, he made it his business to make sure people know and follow absolutely secondary and useless dietary rules (useless, because following them has no observable, objective benefits), but to outlaw some of the most amoral human creations - nahh, it's too hard. At the present time, it is a reality. Can do nothing about reality.
With eating shellfish - no problem, although it is also reality. Thou shall not eat a shellfish. Done
Thou shall not own another man as a property - sorry, above my pay grade. Can not command that.
The best I can do, is to highly regulate it. Like you can beat your slave as long as he/she does not die in a day or two.

This is what one has to believe in in order to buy in.
So, basically, to buy in, I need to suspend common sense, critical thinking, reason.
But never mind me. If God exists, why would God want me to suspend some of my brain functions?
He gave me a brain to use it. So I do.

Quote:
But if you don't buy in, and insist on simply criticizing it from without, not only will you never learn, but you will never have any real position to critique.
First. I'm not criticizing. I'm asking questions and pointing out to why it is hard for a reasonable person to accept the answer as satisfactory. If anything, it is a very Jewish, rabbinical, if you wish, approach.

Second. I'm not "from without". I don't even know what that means, unless you insist on being part of some kind of cult or sect.
And why would I need to be "from within" to have "real position to critique" anyway?
Where does this requirement come from?
Do I need to be "from within" government to be in a position to criticize government?

Third. Sure, if I am a bad student, I will never learn. I also will never learn even if I'm a good student, but there is not much to learn or if I'm a better student as a student than my teacher is as a teacher.
So, how do we go about determining where are we on that point?
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Old 05-12-2019, 03:27 PM
 
Location: So. Cal.
421 posts, read 189,470 times
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Sonof - "So, how do we go about determining where are we on that point?"

There is no 'we' as long as you keep ignoring the Rabbi's points and repeating your misunderstandings.
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Old 05-12-2019, 03:44 PM
 
570 posts, read 56,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
I'm asking questions and pointing out to why it is hard for a reasonable person to accept the answer as satisfactory.

This, of course, is assuming that you are a reasonable person. Which is a subject that is much in doubt.
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Old 05-12-2019, 03:52 PM
 
69 posts, read 9,573 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahayana View Post
Sonof - "So, how do we go about determining where are we on that point?"

There is no 'we' as long as you keep ignoring the Rabbi's points and repeating your misunderstandings.
As of matter of very easily observable and verifiable fact (all you need to do is to actually read my post)
I actually addressed pretty much every point Rabbi made.

Last edited by Sonof; 05-12-2019 at 04:03 PM..
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Old 05-12-2019, 03:59 PM
 
69 posts, read 9,573 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
This, of course, is assuming that you are a reasonable person. Which is a subject that is much in doubt.
In logic this type of comment called ed hominem. Personal attack.
Usually it comes out of frustration.
When one can not deal with arguments being made, and frustration and cognitive dissonance kick in, one goes for a least admirable option - attacking the person instead of his argument.
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Old 05-12-2019, 04:14 PM
 
Location: NJ
1,385 posts, read 494,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
Here what you just said -
Omnipotent, all-knowing God, creator of the Universe and Life, The God who took Jews out of the Egypt and parted the Red See was too weak of a god to deal with a contemporary reality established by one of the life forms he created.
Actually, this is a conclusion you have drawn, not what I just said. What I said was that God, in his infinite wisdom, saw more value to regulating a human behavior until it was no longer desirable than outlawing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
Among countless other similarly useless behavioral modifications, he made it his business to make sure people know and follow absolutely secondary and useless dietary rules (useless, because following them has no observable, objective benefits),
Here is what you just said: "I (sonof) am in the position to decide what laws are useful and useless and am more in a position to judge what it worthwhile and what is necessary or not." I don't accept your self-aggrandizement. And therefore, your particular judgment about what makes sense and what doesn't is uninteresting to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post

So, basically, to buy in, I need to suspend common sense, critical thinking, reason.
In some cases, yes -- some of religion is about faith even in the face of what we think of as reasonable thinking. You don't like that. So? If you think that your job is to judge God and act accordingly then have at it. You are rejecting certain core tenets of Judaism but that won't change Judaism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
First. I'm not criticizing.
Sure you are. By calling God weak, or deciding that his method and system are wrong, you are criticizing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
I'm asking questions and pointing out to why it is hard for a reasonable person to accept the answer as satisfactory. If anything, it is a very Jewish, rabbinical, if you wish, approach.
Then you know very little what a Jewish, and rabbinical method actually is. Replacing God's system with what you think of as your superior human reasoning is not a Jewish way of thinking. At least not an Orthodox Jewish way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
Second. I'm not "from without". I don't even know what that means, unless you insist on being part of some kind of cult or sect.
Are you familiar with the texts? Are you learned in the various intricacies of law and traditional textual analysis? No, because you are still asking very basic questions. This places you without, on the outside of a system, criticizing as an outsider.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
And why would I need to be "from within" to have "real position to critique" anyway?
Because someone who knows nothing and doesn't even know what he doesn't know presents critiques that are baseless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
Where does this requirement come from?
It is a very Jewish, rabbinical, if you wish, approach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
Do I need to be "from within" government to be in a position to criticize government?
You need to be informed about the governmental system and its development, plus its method for your critiques of its logic to hold any water. If you don't see that, then there is very little anyone can do to explain anything to you because you have already made up your mind without knowing anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
Third. Sure, if I am a bad student, I will never learn. I also will never learn even if I'm a good student, but there is not much to learn or if I'm a better student as a student than my teacher is as a teacher.
So, how do we go about determining where are we on that point?
A student shouldn't make up his mind or assume that his thinking is better than the experts from the last few thousand years, which is precisely what you have done.

If you have questions, feel free to ask. But if you start insisting that you have the answers, I'll sit this one out, thanks.
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Old 05-12-2019, 04:45 PM
 
570 posts, read 56,174 times
Reputation: 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
In logic this type of comment called ed hominem. Personal attack.
Usually it comes out of frustration.
When one can not deal with arguments being made, and frustration and cognitive dissonance kick in, one goes for a least admirable option - attacking the person instead of his argument.

Except, I'm not arguing or debating with you. I'm basing my assessment on the "very easily observable and verifiable fact" (your words) of your postings to others in this thread since you came on this forum.

But, for the sake of civility, I'll rephrase what I said: This, of course, is assuming that your arguments are reasonable. Which is a subject that is much in doubt.
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Old 05-12-2019, 05:03 PM
 
69 posts, read 9,573 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
Actually, this is a conclusion you have drawn, not what I just said. What I said was that God, in his infinite wisdom, saw more value to regulating a human behavior until it was no longer desirable than outlawing it.
Even worse.

If god, in his infinite wisdom, saw at any point in human history that one of the morally ugliest human constructs is more "desirable" and "valuable", than eating shellfish, then following this god and his "infinite wisdom" would not be acceptable for me even if I was sure he exists. It's like following any morally bankrupted tyrant in history.
Thankfully, since this god of yours is indistinguishable from non-existent and, therefore, is overwhelmingly probable simply to be your mental construct, I'm not facing this choice.

The fact that you don't see anything wrong with "god's infinite wisdom" tells me enough about either your moral compass or your intellectual honesty (or both) to make a very easy choice - there is nothing I can learn from you and there is nothing I want to learn from you.
I'm sorry, if there is anybody, especially kids, who can not make their own choices as to what to learn, who are forced to "learn" anything from you.

Be well.

Last edited by Sonof; 05-12-2019 at 06:00 PM..
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