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Old 05-12-2019, 05:10 PM
 
Location: So. Cal.
421 posts, read 189,619 times
Reputation: 360

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
There is nothing I can learn from you and there is nothing I want to learn from you.
You have it backwards: There is nothing I want to learn from you, therefore I can learn nothing from you.

Two last points 1) until you can accept that you do not understand, you will never go beyond your own opinions 2) take much more t i m e to ponder, & focus just on one simple idea.
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Old 05-12-2019, 05:12 PM
 
Location: So. Cal.
421 posts, read 189,619 times
Reputation: 360
Back to topic, Prager's Genesis volume arrived yesterday, have not read much of it.
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Old 05-12-2019, 05:14 PM
 
69 posts, read 9,667 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
Except, I'm not arguing or debating with you. I'm basing my assessment on the "very easily observable and verifiable fact" (your words) of your postings to others in this thread since you came on this forum.

But, for the sake of civility, I'll rephrase what I said: This, of course, is assuming that your arguments are reasonable. Which is a subject that is much in doubt.
Great! This would be just fine.
Now, in order for your statements to be taken seriously, you need to substantiate your doubts about reasonability of my arguments with arguments of your own.
Otherwise, your statements are simply empty words that don't deserve any kind of attention.
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Old 05-12-2019, 06:45 PM
 
Location: NJ
1,390 posts, read 495,927 times
Reputation: 596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
Even worse.

If god, in his infinite wisdom, saw at any point in human history that one of the morally ugliest human constructs is more "desirable"
He saw that it was desirable to people and he regulated it to make it less desirable to people. Taking a word out of context and trying to paint a false picture is intellectually dishonest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
and "valuable",
What are you quoting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
than eating shellfish,
Which was, in a desert, significantly less desirable and less engrained in human practice than among people recently emancipated from a system in which slavery was a fact of life
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
then following this god and his "infinite wisdom" would not be acceptable for me even if I was sure he exists. It's like following any morally bankrupted tyrant in history.
Feel free to hold that position. I will feel free not to care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
Thankfully, since this god of yours is indistinguishable from non-existent and, therefore, is overwhelmingly probable simply to be your mental construct, I'm not facing this choice.
And yet you seem preoccupied with the concept. Weird.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
The fact that you don't see anything wrong with "god's infinite wisdom" tells me enough about either your moral compass or your intellectual honesty (or both) to make a very easy choice - there is nothing I can learn from you and there is nothing I want to learn from you.
The fact that you ask questions uninterested in answers that require thinking outside of your mental box demonstrates that you have no interest in learning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
I'm sorry, if there is anybody, especially kids, who can not make their own choices as to what to learn, who are forced to "learn" anything from you.
I feel that way about algebra. Go figure.
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:35 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
11,181 posts, read 10,999,497 times
Reputation: 7419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
Even worse.

If god, in his infinite wisdom, saw at any point in human history that one of the morally ugliest human constructs is more "desirable" and "valuable", than eating shellfish, then following this god and his "infinite wisdom" would not be acceptable for me even if I was sure he exists. It's like following any morally bankrupted tyrant in history.
Thankfully, since this god of yours is indistinguishable from non-existent and, therefore, is overwhelmingly probable simply to be your mental construct, I'm not facing this choice.

The fact that you don't see anything wrong with "god's infinite wisdom" tells me enough about either your moral compass or your intellectual honesty (or both) to make a very easy choice - there is nothing I can learn from you and there is nothing I want to learn from you.
I'm sorry, if there is anybody, especially kids, who can not make their own choices as to what to learn, who are forced to "learn" anything from you.

Be well.
This is a forum to discuss Judaism. The existence of God is axiomatic. Questioning the existence of God is not acceptable in this forum. Let me suggest you should read the rules. Read the Terms Of Service. Read the rules posted at the top of the main Religion and Spirituality forum. Read the rules at the top of this forum. They all apply.
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:52 AM
 
Location: US
27,968 posts, read 15,053,894 times
Reputation: 1746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonof View Post
Even worse.

If god, in his infinite wisdom, saw at any point in human history that one of the morally ugliest human constructs is more "desirable" and "valuable", than eating shellfish, then following this god and his "infinite wisdom" would not be acceptable for me even if I was sure he exists. It's like following any morally bankrupted tyrant in history.
Thankfully, since this god of yours is indistinguishable from non-existent and, therefore, is overwhelmingly probable simply to be your mental construct, I'm not facing this choice.

The fact that you don't see anything wrong with "god's infinite wisdom" tells me enough about either your moral compass or your intellectual honesty (or both) to make a very easy choice - there is nothing I can learn from you and there is nothing I want to learn from you.
I'm sorry, if there is anybody, especially kids, who can not make their own choices as to what to learn, who are forced to "learn" anything from you.

Be well.
The bolded now makes sense why youíre here...

On the slavery issue, as the Rabbi explained it, I see it as a parent that knows his kid is going to drink alcohol, probably due to peer pressure, so the parent makes a compromise, the kid can drink a limited amount, but, only at home and cannot go anywhere after having consumed the alcohol, in this way, the parent maintains a certain amount of control over their kid in order to prevent a worse outcome...
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:32 AM
 
581 posts, read 58,592 times
Reputation: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
The bolded now makes sense why you’re here...
Yep. 21 posts made since registering for City-Data forums, and ALL of them made here in the Judaism forum, purportedly to "question" Jews. Hmm...
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Old 05-13-2019, 07:18 AM
 
Location: US
27,968 posts, read 15,053,894 times
Reputation: 1746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
Yep. 21 posts made since registering for City-Data forums, and ALL of them made here in the Judaism forum, purportedly to "question" Jews. Hmm...
Itís almost as bad as Christians telling us that we donít understand our own Tanakh, but they do...
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:03 AM
 
Location: So. Cal.
421 posts, read 189,619 times
Reputation: 360
Prager's explanations on Exodus 4:21...

Quote:
There are at least two ways of dealing with this problem.
1. God believed Pharaoh deserved to be punished.
Had Pharaoh released the Israelites after a single plague, God would not have been able to adequately punish him and the Egyptian nation for enslaving the Israelites for hundreds of years and for the mass murder of the infant boys—all of which, it should be noted, they did out of free will, well before God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
2. Strengthening Pharaoh’s heart is precisely what gave Pharaoh free will.
Had God not strengthened Pharaoh’s heart, Pharaoh would have released the Israelites after one or, at most, two or three plagues. But such a release would have no more been an act of free will than it is free will when a man gives a confession while being tortured, or signs a contract with a gun pointed at his head (as in the famous words from Mario Puzo’s novel, The Godfather, “I’ll make him an offer he can’t refuse”). God’s strengthening allowed Pharaoh to do what, in his heart, he really wanted to do: refuse to give up his slaves.
I would appreciate other ways of explaining the Lord hardening or stiffening the Pharaoh's heart.
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:43 AM
 
581 posts, read 58,592 times
Reputation: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahayana View Post
Prager's explanations on Exodus 4:21...



I would appreciate other ways of explaining the Lord hardening or stiffening the Pharaoh's heart.

In his book The Exodus, Richard Elliott Friedman speaks of the different sources for the Bible, stating that it was the Levite sources that focused on the hardening of Pharaoh's heart, which kept the plagues coming. But Source J (which is not Levite) includes none of this. Friedman writes of Source J: It jumps from Moses’ saying “Let my people go” (Exodus 5: 1f.) to the people’s already having departed Egypt (13: 21). The Pharaoh answers the first demand with “I won’t let Israel leave” (5: 2), and he is not mentioned again until “He heard that the people had fled” (14: 5). Who knows what story, if any, came between. The plagues and exodus story comes entirely from the Levite sources. Interestingly, J has a story of plagues in Egypt, but it is set in the time of Abraham (Genesis 12), not in the time of the exodus.

I don't know whether this sheds any illumination on why G-d would have strengthened Pharaoh's heart against letting the Israelites go, but it obviously was an event that was of greater significance to the Levite (priestly) caste than possibly to those who were not Levite. Friedman's theory asserts that it was not only the Levites who were the main authors of the Bible, but it was also only the Levites who were the original people of the exodus.
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