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Old 10-31-2018, 06:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
Here's the translation for the same portion from a Jewish site:

13. I saw in the visions of the night, and behold with the clouds of the heaven, one like a man was coming, and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was brought before Him.

14. And He gave him dominion and glory and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and tongues shall serve him; his dominion is an eternal dominion, which will not be removed, and his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16490#

Thanks for that. Does the description above fit the upcoming Messiah? That he will be coming "with the clouds of the heaven?"

Last edited by Seeker0101; 10-31-2018 at 06:31 PM..
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Old 10-31-2018, 09:08 PM
 
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Here is more from Judaism on Daniel 7:13-14. See link below.
It also discusses the two Moshiachs in Judaism: Moshiach ben Josef and Moshiach ben David.
ben = son of.

The Pre-Messianic Era

in Judaism the focus is not so much on "the Messiah" as it is on "the Messianic Era" which is ushered in at that time.
the person who is "the Messiah" is not the focus. the focus is what occurs at that time, things like world peace for instance and war ends. that is one example.
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Old 10-31-2018, 09:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post

in Judaism the focus is not so much on "the Messiah" as it is on "the Messianic Era" which is ushered in at that time.
the person who is "the Messiah" is not the focus. the focus is what occurs at that time, things like world peace for instance and war ends. that is one example.
Totally correct and well stated.
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Old 10-31-2018, 10:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post

in Judaism the focus is not so much on "the Messiah" as it is on "the Messianic Era" which is ushered in at that time.
the person who is "the Messiah" is not the focus. the focus is what occurs at that time, things like world peace for instance and war ends. that is one example.
Yes, that I believe I knew. I just needed clarity on the two Messiahs for my own reference.

So have I misunderstood or will Mashiach ben Dovid be the one spoken of in Daniel 7:13, whereas the political figure you expect first will be Mashiach ben Yosef or Mashiach ben Ephraim?
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Old 10-31-2018, 11:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker0101 View Post
Yes, that I believe I knew. I just needed clarity on the two Messiahs for my own reference.

So have I misunderstood or will Mashiach ben Dovid be the one spoken of in Daniel 7:13, whereas the political figure you expect first will be Mashiach ben Yosef or Mashiach ben Ephraim?
we don't focus on the person. We don't focus on who is the Maschiach. We don't focus on scrutinizing and predicting "when is it going to happen" or "who is it going to be." we focus on "how can we bring it to happen sooner." In Judaism there is in every generation a living person who could be Maschiach. Now. 20 years ago. 50 years ago. 200 years ago. Every generation there is a living breathing human person, alive and living and walking among us the literal Maschiach.

What determines if that person ushers in the Messianic era is NOT based on "predictions" or "analyzing texts" [in Judaism we are not supposed to do that, and it has negative results when people try to do it anyway] . The who and when of which person is revealed as Maschiach is determined by how we act in our every day lives and how we treat each other. Literally the arrival of Maschiach is regulated by our behavior, by our thought speech action and feelings, by how we live our daily life and the mitzvot we do each and every day and our constant awareness of G-d at all times and in all situations.

So the Messianic era and the person who turns out that generation to be the Maschiach, it could be sooner. Could be later. Could happen with ease. Could happen with difficulty. All of that is based on how well we treat each other, how much every day we live the life G-d wants us to live. In Judaism we are given instructions on how to live the life G-d wants us to live, and we do that by following the Torah and the 613 commandments and prayer and Torah study and mitzvot and acts of kindness.

The focus is on G-d, how we serve God this day, every day, here and now. And this brings the Messianic era sooner, and with more ease.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-31-2018 at 11:09 PM..
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Old 10-31-2018, 11:12 PM
 
13,093 posts, read 13,698,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker0101 View Post
Yes, that I believe I knew. I just needed clarity on the two Messiahs for my own reference.

So have I misunderstood or will Mashiach ben Dovid be the one spoken of in Daniel 7:13, whereas the political figure you expect first will be Mashiach ben Yosef or Mashiach ben Ephraim?
so to answer your question:
it doesn't matter.
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Old 10-31-2018, 11:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
so to answer your question:
it doesn't matter.
With all due respect, and I'm hopeful that I'm not being contentious by saying this (believe me I'm not trying to be), but that article you provided did, in fact, focus in detail on who the person will be. I understand that he may not be "the" focus, but you still speak and obviously write articles about him, so if it didn't matter, why was it (or any other article that can be found online about the Messiah) posted?
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Old 10-31-2018, 11:23 PM
 
13,093 posts, read 13,698,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker0101 View Post
With all due respect, and I'm hopeful that I'm not being contentious by saying this (believe me I'm not trying to be), but that article you provided did, in fact, focus in detail on who the person will be. I understand that he may not be "the" focus, but you still speak and obviously write articles about him, so if it didn't matter, why was it (or any other article that can be found online about the Messiah) posted?
it's part of a larger context.
the larger context is more important than the part.
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Old 10-31-2018, 11:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
it's part of a larger context.
the larger context is more important than the part.
Right. I get that. But what I don't understand is this: You have answers as to who the Messiah will be, answers as to how many there will be; you provide Scripture to substantiate your claim, but when asked "which is which", that is something beyond the scope of focus in Jewish tradition?
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Old 10-31-2018, 11:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker0101 View Post
I've done nothing but ask questions. If I've ripped something out of context, show me, please. All you've said thus far is that you don't focus on the Messiah. But again, I don't understand how that can be. You have answers as to who the Messiah will be, answers as to how many there will be; you provide Scripture to substantiate your claim, but when asked "which is which", that is something beyond the scope of focus in Jewish tradition?
in Judaism we learn that there are questions we can answer and there are questions we don't ask.
There are a number of different traditions. I'm curious to hear how rose or others respond.


what difference does it make to you "which is which"?
that is a genuine question and I too am seeking to be courteous and not contentious.
Thank you.
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