U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Judaism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-29-2018, 02:39 PM
 
31 posts, read 4,423 times
Reputation: 10

Advertisements

Here's something that I've been trying to figure out. Few questions for you all:

1) You believe that the Messiah will be a human being, a political figure, correct? This Messiah will not be considered God and will not be worshiped?

2) In Judaism, is there a belief of a singular Son of Man or a singular Son of God? I don't mean son(s) of God, the way Adam, the angels, Israel, peacemakers, etc, are called sons of God, but a Being named Son of God or Son of Man that is divine, yet distinct from God in some mystical way, and one that will be worshiped?

3) Is there a difference between the title son of God and son of man in Judaism? Son of man (according to Wikipedia), "denotes mankind generally in contrast to deity or godhead, with special reference to their weakness and frailty." Son of God (again from Wikipedia), "When used by the rabbis, the term referred to Israel or to human beings in general, and not as a reference to the Jewish mashiach.[32]"

So are these titles (with regard to human beings) used interchangeably?

4) Having done some research, I was unable to find consistent information about whether or not the Book of Enoch is accepted in Jewish orthodoxy. Some say it is, but it's kept "secret." Some sources say that it's not. Can anyone here shed some light on if it is or isn't accepted as a reliable, spiritual source to reference, please?


Thanks.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-29-2018, 04:02 PM
 
Location: US
27,961 posts, read 15,050,737 times
Reputation: 1736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker0101 View Post
Here's something that I've been trying to figure out. Few questions for you all:

1) You believe that the Messiah will be a human being, a political figure, correct? This Messiah will not be considered God and will not be worshiped?

2) In Judaism, is there a belief of a singular Son of Man or a singular Son of God? I don't mean son(s) of God, the way Adam, the angels, Israel, peacemakers, etc, are called sons of God, but a Being named Son of God or Son of Man that is divine, yet distinct from God in some mystical way, and one that will be worshiped?

3) Is there a difference between the title son of God and son of man in Judaism? Son of man (according to Wikipedia), "denotes mankind generally in contrast to deity or godhead, with special reference to their weakness and frailty." Son of God (again from Wikipedia), "When used by the rabbis, the term referred to Israel or to human beings in general, and not as a reference to the Jewish mashiach.[32]"

So are these titles (with regard to human beings) used interchangeably?

4) Having done some research, I was unable to find consistent information about whether or not the Book of Enoch is accepted in Jewish orthodoxy. Some say it is, but it's kept "secret." Some sources say that it's not. Can anyone here shed some light on if it is or isn't accepted as a reliable, spiritual source to reference, please?


Thanks.
Wait for the Rabbi...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-29-2018, 05:17 PM
 
31 posts, read 4,423 times
Reputation: 10
Okay, will do. What's his username?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-29-2018, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Long Island
1,716 posts, read 1,386,834 times
Reputation: 1410
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker0101 View Post
Here's something that I've been trying to figure out. Few questions for you all:

1) You believe that the Messiah will be a human being, a political figure, correct? This Messiah will not be considered God and will not be worshiped?

2) In Judaism, is there a belief of a singular Son of Man or a singular Son of God? I don't mean son(s) of God, the way Adam, the angels, Israel, peacemakers, etc, are called sons of God, but a Being named Son of God or Son of Man that is divine, yet distinct from God in some mystical way, and one that will be worshiped?

3) Is there a difference between the title son of God and son of man in Judaism? Son of man (according to Wikipedia), "denotes mankind generally in contrast to deity or godhead, with special reference to their weakness and frailty." Son of God (again from Wikipedia), "When used by the rabbis, the term referred to Israel or to human beings in general, and not as a reference to the Jewish mashiach.[32]"

So are these titles (with regard to human beings) used interchangeably?

4) Having done some research, I was unable to find consistent information about whether or not the Book of Enoch is accepted in Jewish orthodoxy. Some say it is, but it's kept "secret." Some sources say that it's not. Can anyone here shed some light on if it is or isn't accepted as a reliable, spiritual source to reference, please?


Thanks.
1. Correct, the messiah will be a man. He will reestablish the Davidic monarchy, rule as king, and then die.
2. No man will be divine, and no man will be worshiped. That would be idolatry.
3. I'll let someone better equipped answer this.
4. The Book of Enoch is not canonical.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-29-2018, 06:47 PM
 
397 posts, read 122,756 times
Reputation: 518
Even Wikipedia is not canonical.

AFAIK, the only rabbi posting here lately is rosends.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-29-2018, 06:57 PM
 
Location: NJ
1,390 posts, read 495,346 times
Reputation: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker0101 View Post
Here's something that I've been trying to figure out. Few questions for you all:

1) You believe that the Messiah will be a human being, a political figure, correct? This Messiah will not be considered God and will not be worshiped?
Right -- a political/religious leader, fully human and not worshipped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker0101 View Post
2) In Judaism, is there a belief of a singular Son of Man or a singular Son of God? I don't mean son(s) of God, the way Adam, the angels, Israel, peacemakers, etc, are called sons of God, but a Being named Son of God or Son of Man that is divine, yet distinct from God in some mystical way, and one that will be worshiped?
No. We worship God. That's it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker0101 View Post
3) Is there a difference between the title son of God and son of man in Judaism? Son of man (according to Wikipedia), "denotes mankind generally in contrast to deity or godhead, with special reference to their weakness and frailty." Son of God (again from Wikipedia), "When used by the rabbis, the term referred to Israel or to human beings in general, and not as a reference to the Jewish mashiach.[32]"
The term "Son of man" appears in 2 basic forms -- ben enosh which appears once in Psalms and Ben Adam which appears often, a few times in jeremiah, once in Psalms, once in Daniel and a large number of times in Ezekiel. It refers to humans or a human. The phrase "Sons of God" is a term used to refer to a variety of things (from Angels to the children of Israel and others).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker0101 View Post
So are these titles (with regard to human beings) used interchangeably?
No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker0101 View Post
4) Having done some research, I was unable to find consistent information about whether or not the Book of Enoch is accepted in Jewish orthodoxy. Some say it is, but it's kept "secret." Some sources say that it's not. Can anyone here shed some light on if it is or isn't accepted as a reliable, spiritual source to reference, please?
It is apocrypha, not divine or divinely inspired. Some apocrypha is useful for some historical info, but that's about it.
https://www.chabad.org/library/artic...-Apocrypha.htm
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-29-2018, 10:14 PM
 
31 posts, read 4,423 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
1. Correct, the messiah will be a man. He will reestablish the Davidic monarchy, rule as king, and then die.
2. No man will be divine, and no man will be worshiped. That would be idolatry.
3. I'll let someone better equipped answer this.
4. The Book of Enoch is not canonical.
Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ben Shunamit View Post
Even Wikipedia is not canonical.

AFAIK, the only rabbi posting here lately is rosends.
Oh, I know. Definitely wasn't treating it as Gospel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
Right -- a political/religious leader, fully human and not worshipped.

No. We worship God. That's it.

The term "Son of man" appears in 2 basic forms -- ben enosh which appears once in Psalms and Ben Adam which appears often, a few times in jeremiah, once in Psalms, once in Daniel and a large number of times in Ezekiel. It refers to humans or a human. The phrase "Sons of God" is a term used to refer to a variety of things (from Angels to the children of Israel and others).

No.

It is apocrypha, not divine or divinely inspired. Some apocrypha is useful for some historical info, but that's about it.
https://www.chabad.org/library/artic...-Apocrypha.htm
Thanks again for your help and for that link. If I can ask: Would you prefer I call you rosends, Rabbi or something else?

Regarding "sons of God", I have two questions:

1) In the Hebrew language, is the original word "Ben" plural or singular? Is it "sons of God" or is it a singular "son of God" that is then used in a plural sense?

2) Adam means man, but so does enosh, right? If so, where exactly is the connection between man and the word God that was used in its place in some (all?) translations?

Also, if I could please ask you two additional questions:

1) Do Jews believe in enlightenment that can take place in this world? Meaning, not knowing God in the world to come, but to some degree, knowing Him here and now, on an experiential level? Or will it always be intellectual, until one passes on?

2) Going back to the son of God reference, can you tell me what it was about the way Jesus used the term "Son of God", that made the Pharisees so angry? If every person is a son of God, why would they accuse Him of blasphemy? Does someone have the ability to use that term in a way that would imply that they were suggesting that they were God? I think this might take us right back to the Ben Adam/Enosh question.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-30-2018, 12:00 AM
 
31 posts, read 4,423 times
Reputation: 10
More specifically, regarding question question 2 of the first set of questions: If the word Ben literally only means man (i.e. it doesn't mean God or man and God), why then is the word God used instead?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-30-2018, 02:47 AM
 
Location: US
27,961 posts, read 15,050,737 times
Reputation: 1736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker0101 View Post
More specifically, regarding question question 2 of the first set of questions: If the word Ben literally only means man (i.e. it doesn't mean God or man and God), why then is the word God used instead?
Ben means son...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-30-2018, 02:51 AM
 
31 posts, read 4,423 times
Reputation: 10
My mistake. Yes, I meant Adam or Enosh, as mentioned above. If both Adam and Enosh means man, why use the translation "God?"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Judaism
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top