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Old 05-30-2019, 01:29 AM
 
16 posts, read 1,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Yes, it seems like you have your priorities straight and youíre on your way. I wish the best on your journey.
Thank you so very much!
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Old 05-30-2019, 01:36 AM
 
16 posts, read 1,428 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben Shunamit View Post
By whom? Anyone who matters? If so, it's news to me, not that I am any kind of expert.

Best wishes on your long journey.
Hi Ben. There will always be someone who claims that you're not Jewish enough, or not a Jew at all. Sometimes they matter, sometimes not.
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Old 05-30-2019, 02:19 AM
 
Location: US
27,996 posts, read 15,078,190 times
Reputation: 1754
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorahIsTimeless View Post
To my thinking, there's no point in converting if you're not going to follow the Torah and take it seriously. You can do that just fine as a gentile.

Actually, you can follow the Torah as a gentile too. But, if you want to follow the Torah with other followers of Torah who take it as seriously as you do, you need orthodox Judaism for that.

I've never been to a conservative congregation, but reform just doesn't have anywhere near the same "feel" for me as going to the orthodox shul. However, Judaism at all levels has something to offer for someone.

There are, for example, many Christians (or Xians if you prefer), who are curious to learn more about Judaism. The classes offered at the reform synagogue are perfect for them and it helps create harmony between the two faiths.

Granted, those taking the reform classes will be learning about Judaism through the lense of reform, but it's a place where they are welcomed and can feel comfortable asking questions.

So, each sect has its place and purpose I guess. The majority of people flocking to Judaism aren't flocking to the orthodox shuls. I'm not one of the majority.
Everyone has to start somewhere...
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Old 05-30-2019, 02:23 AM
 
Location: US
27,996 posts, read 15,078,190 times
Reputation: 1754
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
Why? He is correct that non-Orthodox conversions are not seen as universally valid. But, then again, not all Orthodox conversions are seen as universally valid either.

It's also true that it's not so clear-cut in the real world.
This non-acceptance I just donít understand...If one has a desire to fully follow Torah and live as a Jew within a Jewish community, then why would HaShem reject them?...And if He doesnít then who are we to make that judgement of who should or should not be recognized?...
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Old 05-30-2019, 02:25 AM
 
Location: Long Island
1,721 posts, read 1,389,902 times
Reputation: 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
This non-acceptance I just donít understand...If one has a desire to fully follow Torah and live as a Jew within a Jewish community, then why would HaShem reject them?...And if He doesnít then who are we to make that judgement of who should or should not be recognized?...
It's (primarily) about who each group sees as being fit to be on beit din.
It has nothing to do with God.
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Old 05-30-2019, 02:37 AM
 
Location: US
27,996 posts, read 15,078,190 times
Reputation: 1754
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorahIsTimeless View Post
Thank you Rachel NewYork, for your kind and encouraging words.

I agree with you on the name Yochanon/Yonaton. He isn't 100% set on it and I've been trying to talk him into something else. In the end he can do what he wants. It doesn't really matter to me.

We had our final class tonight. I talked with the rabbi afterward and asked who is on the beit din. He said himself, the cantor, and another rabbi. Sounds great, except the cantor is gay and the other rabbi is a woman (she's a reconstructionist rabbi I haven't met, and I don't know anything about her).

I can't help it. I have problems with this. Big problems. Everything in me is telling me not to do this. It doesn't feel right for me.

And let's not even talk about what that might mean for the mikveh.

On the way home after class I talked to my 16 year old daughter and asked her how she would feel if I didn't convert with her and the rest of the family. She said she would convert anyway, and she and my other daughter don't too much care what I do because they know I plan to leave that synagogue as soon as I can. Ouch.

I told her that her dad will probably be a member there, and that there's really nothing I can do there as a member than I can't do now. She replied, "You can't be called to the Torah." I replied that not being called to the Torah doesn't bother me, since that would never happen in an orthodox shul anyway.

"I guess I'll just do my bat mitzvah with my sister," she responded. That was heart breaking. The three of us were going to do it together. And I don't know if I'll get a chance to do it in the orthodox shul or not. I'm certainly not 12. Even if I could, it wouldn't be the same as doing it together. I probably wouldn't do it.

I wonder if I can request they use another person on the beit din instead of the cantor. But then, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. The rabbi knows I want to convert orthodox. He knows my views. We meet with him Friday. I will talk to him.

I also don't want to hurt my daughters. I think my younger daughter would be more hurt than she let on tonight. She asked me later, "so, what are you going to do? Are you going to convert?" She's worried now. I can tell. I told her I would talk to the rabbi and go from there.
On reconstuctionists, have you read up on their views?...I wouldnít worry about who is on the Beit Din, because in the end, it is between you and HaShem...I remember JB stating, as a conservative, he and his family decided to move to NY to be in a more observant community, if I remember correctly...I used to live where JB moved from, ainít that a hoot?...Point is, he and his family wanted to be more observant, so they took the steps to do so and so can you...So, donít worry, itíll all work out in the end...
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Old 05-30-2019, 02:40 AM
 
Location: US
27,996 posts, read 15,078,190 times
Reputation: 1754
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
It's (primarily) about who each group sees as being fit to be on beit din.
It has nothing to do with God.
Sounds political to me...I thought that everything that we do, HaShem should be in the details...
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Old 05-30-2019, 03:53 AM
 
3,964 posts, read 3,346,864 times
Reputation: 1246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
This non-acceptance I just donít understand...If one has a desire to fully follow Torah and live as a Jew within a Jewish community, then why would HaShem reject them?...And if He doesnít then who are we to make that judgement of who should or should not be recognized?...
Itís not people who make ďthe callĒ who is Jewish and who is. It. Itís the Torah that decides. Itís clear if you do not accept all 613 mitzvos, AND observe all that apply to you, then you are well meaning, but not a Jew. No reputable beis din would convert someone who knew from the start they were going to vadai commit aveiros. Youíre better off remaining a righteous goy so that you donít transgress the Torah.
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Old 05-30-2019, 03:57 AM
 
3,964 posts, read 3,346,864 times
Reputation: 1246
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
It's (primarily) about who each group sees as being fit to be on beit din.
It has nothing to do with God.
Again, itís the Torah who decides who qualifies for a beis din. There are obviously Jewish ďmovementsĒ that have made their own ďmitzvos,Ē but what can I say? We have free will to follow or not follow.
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Old 05-30-2019, 06:50 AM
 
605 posts, read 61,670 times
Reputation: 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorahIsTimeless View Post
Thank you Rachel NewYork, for your kind and encouraging words.

I agree with you on the name Yochanon/Yonaton. He isn't 100% set on it and I've been trying to talk him into something else. In the end he can do what he wants. It doesn't really matter to me.

We had our final class tonight. I talked with the rabbi afterward and asked who is on the beit din. He said himself, the cantor, and another rabbi. Sounds great, except the cantor is gay and the other rabbi is a woman (she's a reconstructionist rabbi I haven't met, and I don't know anything about her).

I can't help it. I have problems with this. Big problems. Everything in me is telling me not to do this. It doesn't feel right for me.

And let's not even talk about what that might mean for the mikveh.

On the way home after class I talked to my 16 year old daughter and asked her how she would feel if I didn't convert with her and the rest of the family. She said she would convert anyway, and she and my other daughter don't too much care what I do because they know I plan to leave that synagogue as soon as I can. Ouch.

I told her that her dad will probably be a member there, and that there's really nothing I can do there as a member than I can't do now. She replied, "You can't be called to the Torah." I replied that not being called to the Torah doesn't bother me, since that would never happen in an orthodox shul anyway.

"I guess I'll just do my bat mitzvah with my sister," she responded. That was heart breaking. The three of us were going to do it together. And I don't know if I'll get a chance to do it in the orthodox shul or not. I'm certainly not 12. Even if I could, it wouldn't be the same as doing it together. I probably wouldn't do it.

I wonder if I can request they use another person on the beit din instead of the cantor. But then, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. The rabbi knows I want to convert orthodox. He knows my views. We meet with him Friday. I will talk to him.

I also don't want to hurt my daughters. I think my younger daughter would be more hurt than she let on tonight. She asked me later, "so, what are you going to do? Are you going to convert?" She's worried now. I can tell. I told her I would talk to the rabbi and go from there.

If you find that you are unable to resolve your doubts about converting to Reform Judaism, then you really shouldn't be converting. Is the rabbi of your congregation the only person that you speak with? Have you tried reaching out to other Jews in the congregation to get an idea of how warmly you would be accepted? Also, if you cannot, in your heart, accept a fellow Jew who happens to be gay, then Reform Judaism is not for you. I say this with absolutely no judgment on you, just as it would be my hope that you do not judge me for my acceptance of Jewish gay couples within our congregation.

Converts are often troubled with many questions and indecisions, and I think that's the way it's supposed to be. That's one reason why the conversion process can take up to a year, or longer. You may want to delay your conversion in order to give yourself time to further explore other Jewish congregations. Judaism is a monotheistic religion, but not necessarily a monolithic religion.

As for your concerns about your daughters not sharing your faith in Judaism because they don't want to convert to Orthodox... As Jews, we are still all one family. We may not always agree with each other, but keep in mind that, at the end of the day, we are still Jews.
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