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In the other forum, we were discussing a possible new law in Arizona that would make it easier for a business to refuse service if performing that service would be against their religious principles. I made this post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45
Some people have strong religious beliefs. If their job is to provide a service, they should have the right to refuse a service that reasonably violates their religious beliefs.
For example, what if an Orthodox Jewish photographer refuses to take pictures at a Catholic wedding in the presence of idols they find abhorrent?
What if the same photographer refuses to take pictures at a family celebration where a pig is butchered, roasted, and devoured by the guests?
What if a devout Muslim pharmacist refuses to sell condoms to two men who come into the store holding hands?
Do my questions make any sense to you or is there a reason why an Orthodox Jew would never work as a photographer?
You picked a bad time to ask. Shabbat has started on the east coast of the US and is coming soon to the rest of the country. Don't expect an answer from the Torah-observant until tomorrow night at the earliest.
Since my computer is on and in voice mode (no typing or mouse needed) I'll answer some of your statements.
First to the Photographer: (S)he is a private contractor. So that person can take or refuse ant job they want.
Next: As to the Arizona Bill, I believe it should fail. Why? I've been to numerous Muslim countries where Muslims sell alcohol. Why? Because the ban is on drinking it. Not selling it.
Next: Holding hands. In nearly every country outside the US, holding hands is a sign of friendship and not homosexuality. Also FWIW men kissing on the cheeks is also not a sign of homosexuality. It is most common in Europe as a greeting.
BTW
Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill
Pruzhany, as I understand your answer, you think it fine for the Orthodox Jewish photographer to refuse to take pictures at a Catholic wedding or at a gathering where a pig is butchered, roasted, and eaten.
On the other hand, the Muslim pharmacist should be willing to sell condoms to a pair of guys he suspects are gay.
As long as the OJ is not eating the pig or taking part in any idolatry, what does it matter? But that person should still have the option of taking the job versus passing on it.
The difference between the situation you present and the way the law will be applied is that public businesses will now use this to further discrimination. There is a difference in my eyes between a private contractor and a public free standing business (Restaurants, Retail Establishments, etc).
As per the OJ, it doesn't matter what I think as its not my business. If they don't have a storefront than they can do whatever they want. Now if you asked the same question if the TOJ had a storefront where (s)he catered to walk-ins who wanted portraits in their store and he refused because they were wearing crosses, then that would be discrimination based on religious beliefs.
As to Muslims selling condoms. There is no rule on him related to selling it. The rule is on usage where both partners must freely accept the usage of it.
As to the Arizona Law a judge will overturn it.
To give you an understanding of underlying discriminatory practice I'll use the following. One on the Halel stores I used to shop at was bought by Palestinians. On the outside of the building is a sign that says welcome/Peace in multiple languages. The new owners painted over the word Shalom. Inside the store was basically the same, but it wasn't. They had a poster of Israel except the whole poster said Palestine. All the Israeli goods (or any goods that had Hebrew on them) were removed. And they overtly placed German goods in their place. Yet I can go to a Jordanian store a few miles away and the only posters he has are related to Islam. Food wise he carries Palestinian goods as well as Israeli goods (Osem). He's been there for nearly 20 yrs and he is a devout Muslim. How do I know this? Because I've seen the workers just simply stop working put a rug down and do their prayer. Yet in the Palestinian store I've never seen it done by the new owners. So one has to wonder if its done on the bases of religion or bigotry.
In the other forum, we were discussing a possible new law in Arizona that would make it easier for a business to refuse service if performing that service would be against their religious principles. I made this post:
In light of how secularism is being forced down everybody's throat, I think it's a good law in theory, at least. A Jew should be able to refuse to take pictures in a church, for instance, without getting into trouble with the law. A friend of mine was once asked to print up adult posters. The second he saw the picture, he balked, refusing the job. At least this law would deprive the potential customer the opportunity of suing him.
In light of how secularism is being forced down everybody's throat, I think it's a good law in theory, at least. A Jew should be able to refuse to take pictures in a church, for instance, without getting into trouble with the law. A friend of mine was once asked to print up adult posters. The second he saw the picture, he balked, refusing the job. At least this law would deprive the potential customer the opportunity of suing him.
Yeah, I completely agree with that. In the discussion in the R&S forum, I was one of the few people to defend the new law.
To give you an understanding of underlying discriminatory practice I'll use the following. One on the Halel stores I used to shop at was bought by Palestinians. On the outside of the building is a sign that says welcome/Peace in multiple languages. The new owners painted over the word Shalom. Inside the store was basically the same, but it wasn't. They had a poster of Israel except the whole poster said Palestine. All the Israeli goods (or any goods that had Hebrew on them) were removed.
I don't see a problem. The owners didn't like the greeting 'Shalom' and did not want to sell any products made in Israel or products with Hebrew writing on them. I assume they still let you come in and buy products.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany
So one has to wonder if its done on the bases of religion or bigotry.
No, one does not have to wonder. From my experience, every time I try to guess why people do things I am usually wrong. I think it is better to just accept people's behavior as it is and then deal with it.
I don't see a problem. The owners didn't like the greeting 'Shalom' and did not want to sell any products made in Israel or products with Hebrew writing on them. I assume they still let you come in and buy products.
No, one does not have to wonder. From my experience, every time I try to guess why people do things I am usually wrong. I think it is better to just accept people's behavior as it is and then deal with it.
The sign has around 50 translations of the word, Yet only one word is painted over. The sign basically says who is not welcome. They used white paint so the word bleeds through slightly. So Jews get a hint of being unwelcome. The store itself is a Halal store that caters to Muslims. As far as I know Germany is not a Muslim country. Yet all the other merchandise is from Muslim/Arab countries only. Again a point is made. The posters around the stores wipes Israel off the map and replaces city names with ones in Arabic. It's well understood what is meant.
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