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Old 04-14-2019, 09:32 AM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,685,110 times
Reputation: 9156

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
You are conflating intermarriage with forced conversion.

I don't concern myself with who people fall in love with, and whatever statistical effect that has on the Jewish "race." Judaism is a religion, first and foremost. You don't nurture faith by means of population control.

We can remain Jewish regardless of who we live with.
It's about recognizing the consequences of our actions and taking responsibility for the choices we make.

You are in effect saying it's OK to damage, destroy, and erase the Jewish people.

Thats what intermarriage does.
Thats why intermarriage is a problem.

You are in effect saying "you" matter but other people do not matter. You are saying you don't care about the Jewish people. And you are saying you dont care about what happens to the Jewish people.

That is why intermarriage is a problem.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 04-14-2019 at 09:56 AM..
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Old 04-14-2019, 09:54 AM
 
563 posts, read 55,311 times
Reputation: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
It's about recognizing the consequences of our actions and taking responsibility for the choices we make.

You are in effect saying it's OK to damage, destroy, and erase the Jewish people.

Thats what intermarriage does.
Thats why intermarriage is a problem.

You are in effect saying "you" matter but other people do not matter. You are saying you don't care about the Jewish people.

Do NOT put words in my mouth. Do NOT tell me what I am or am not doing. Do NOT tell me how to be a Jew.

Here is some advice for you: Since you are against intermarriage, do not intermarry. Nobody is forcing you to marry someone you don't want to marry.
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Old 04-14-2019, 09:59 AM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,685,110 times
Reputation: 9156
These ARE your words. In bold below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
You are conflating intermarriage with forced conversion.

I don't concern myself with who people fall in love with, and whatever statistical effect that has on the Jewish "race." Judaism is a religion, first and foremost. You don't nurture faith by means of population control.

We can remain Jewish regardless of who we live with.
The choices a Jew makes affect the entire Jewish people. It's about care and concern for something more, more than what one person "wants." More as in addition to; more as in greater than: more as in beyond.

It's seeing beyond me me me me me.
We are one people. We are in this together. We take responsibility for how our choices (our thought, speech, action, and feelings) affect others.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 04-14-2019 at 10:28 AM..
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Old 04-14-2019, 10:39 AM
 
563 posts, read 55,311 times
Reputation: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
These ARE your words. In bold below.



The choices a Jew makes affect the entire Jewish people. It's about care and concern for something more, more than what one person "wants." More as in addition to; more as in greater than: more as in beyond.

It's seeing beyond me me me me me.
We are one people. We are in this together. We take responsibility for how our choices (our thought, speech, action, and feelings) affect others.

Well, you've made it pretty clear as to what you want. I hope you manage to focus all that care and concern of yours on doing something positive, rather than smugly scolding others on the Internet on how to be a Jew.
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Old 04-14-2019, 10:42 AM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,685,110 times
Reputation: 9156
A group of people were travelling in a boat. One of them took a drill and began to drill a hole beneath his bench.

His companions said to him: "Why are you doing this?" Replied the man: "What concern is it of yours? Am I not drilling under my own place?"

Said they to him: "But you will flood the boat for us all!"
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Old 04-14-2019, 10:52 AM
 
45 posts, read 19,702 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob II View Post
I think we are getting somewhere. . . Things like love, compatibility, and understanding should be prepared to take a second seat to the wants of mommy and daddy.

What you are describing sounds like a type of slow death of a people. Jews are 0.25% of the world population. It's this type of thinking that has gotten us to this point.

This 0.25% will only go lower if some change is not made. You simply cannot keep insisting that the fix is in this long term conflated thought process. If a person keeps doing the same repeated thing, and the results become more undesirable. That would signal a needed change.

As much as Jews fight for the right to survive. Sometimes they have no greater enemy than the person they greet every morning in the mirror.

By ignoring a problem long enough. You allow for it to manage itself. And that's exactly '0.25' whats happening.
What are your assumptions based on it is clear from a multitude of studies that the opposite is true, the more we intermarry the less of us there will be.

I agree with you that many Jews should take a look in the mirror and realign their priorities. They should give their kids a good Jewish education so they will not want to intermarry and single Jews should make the effort to find someone who is Jewish.
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:19 AM
 
Location: U.S.A
54 posts, read 6,438 times
Reputation: 76
@Tzaphkiel

You don't have a boat. You have 0.25% of a boat. That amounts to a couple of nuts, bolts, and screws. Can you see how you are looking at others as the problem. When in reality people of this type of mindset are the problem. You have a total agenda of over exaggerating if it fails to meet your agenda. Now. . . Marriage for love is a bad thing ? Try telling that to the world, and see how popular it becomes.

The opinions of everyone must somehow go through you to be acceptable.

Does that sound remotely like some other religious denomination that we as Jews try to distance ourselves ?
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:41 AM
 
Location: NJ
1,382 posts, read 494,347 times
Reputation: 591
Tzaphkiel's point should not be dismissed. The Jewish population is small, and smaller still is the percentage of Jews who follow the laws as understood by Orthodoxy. Intermarriage erodes the community by diluting numbers. Now maybe others say that numbers don't matter or religious law doesn't matter, and their vision of Judaism is something that thrives when non-Jews marry in and the status of children doesn't conform with historical Judaism. But for those of us who value Jewish law in a more Orthodox sense, the decision to intermarry for love (and the religious consequences be damned) affects the entire community. Even if the problem isn't "will later generations have any connection, even if just cultural to their Judaism?" the problem is "will the community be able to be unified when increasing numbers think they are Jewish but are excluded from other sections because their identity is based on unapproved descent?"


some light reading
https://www.aish.com/jw/s/Will-Your-...n-Be-Jews.html
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Old 04-14-2019, 12:01 PM
 
Location: U.S.A
54 posts, read 6,438 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maccabee36 View Post
What are your assumptions based on it is clear from a multitude of studies that the opposite is true, the more we intermarry the less of us there will be.


I agree with you that many Jews should take a look in the mirror and realign their priorities. They should give their kids a good Jewish education so they will not want to intermarry and single Jews should make the effort to find someone who is Jewish.
Changing the dynamics would be a start. Judaism does not have to be a religion of the extreme. The more important facets of the religion are ethics, values, and standards. When we practice those things we truly do honor G-d. People have to begin the process. Judaism mostly wants people to go the end, and work their way to the beginning.

Conversion for instance is a very long drawn out process. A simple beginning would be if you marry a Jew, you have an automatic option to become a Jew. But in all fairness it is voluntary. After all a person can be born to a non-observant Jew, and is considered a Jew. The process needs to be tweaked for survival. I am on our side. But I am not able to separate a person using their own free will. Judaism is fairly simple to understand. And it should be simple to begin the process of growth within the religion.

Join and learn // vs.// Learn and join. But lets keep it simple. If you want a highly advanced understanding of Judaism that is an option of your own doing.

It's no different that some schools. You join and learn at your own pace. Judaism is a lifetime of learning. We never stop learning, no matter how learned we seem to be.
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Old 04-14-2019, 02:42 PM
 
45 posts, read 19,702 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob II View Post
Changing the dynamics would be a start. Judaism does not have to be a religion of the extreme. The more important facets of the religion are ethics, values, and standards. When we practice those things we truly do honor G-d. People have to begin the process. Judaism mostly wants people to go the end, and work their way to the beginning.

Conversion for instance is a very long drawn out process. A simple beginning would be if you marry a Jew, you have an automatic option to become a Jew. But in all fairness it is voluntary. After all a person can be born to a non-observant Jew, and is considered a Jew. The process needs to be tweaked for survival. I am on our side. But I am not able to separate a person using their own free will. Judaism is fairly simple to understand. And it should be simple to begin the process of growth within the religion.

Join and learn // vs.// Learn and join. But lets keep it simple. If you want a highly advanced understanding of Judaism that is an option of your own doing.

It's no different that some schools. You join and learn at your own pace. Judaism is a lifetime of learning. We never stop learning, no matter how learned we seem to be.
Yes, you are right we are ultimately on the same side. You seem very creative and that is a good thing. Within Judaism however we do have certain constructs based on our beliefs of what we believe G-d wants us to do. While we can be creative, We have to stay within those constructs. In Judaism conversion is accompanied by learning it needs to be so people can know how to perform our responsibilities as Jews. You cannot do the Mitzvot unless you know what they are. Marriage is also based on the union between two Jews.

I think that you do have the ability to come up with something good, but please stay within the constructs. So what can you think of?
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