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Old 04-15-2019, 09:46 AM
 
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On Friday night this week, we’ll be teaching our kids about the plague of darkness, where 80% of the entire Jewish people (millions of Jewish souls) perished in a 3-day period (and we’re buried under the cover of darkness so the Egyptians wouldn’t see our pain). Their “shortfall? They didn’t want to stand with the Jewish people as they prepared to walk into the desert. They preferred their assimilated ways.

We also know 20% or less (likely 10%) of the Jews who were exiled to Babylonia returned to Israel when the temple was rebuilt. The rest simply faded to dust.

We also know Jews “experimented” with movements like the Suduccees, Karaites, Reform/Conservative “movements” and more. All those Jews have too faded to dust. Or statistically will soon enough.

There’s only one group of Jews who have survived the millennia - the Jews who follow normative Torah observance. Yes, we have free will. Jews do indeed have the “freedom” to exterminate their Jewish lineage. You want to baptize your grandchildren? Go ahead and intermarry.
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Old 04-27-2019, 09:15 AM
 
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I think we should stop framing intermarriage as a problem. We're just going to alienate people. We should accept all types of marriages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maccabee36 View Post
What is even more alarming is that only about 20% of the children of intermarriages are being raised as Jews see the child rearing chart for the Pew Study below:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/c...#child-rearing
How is this statistic measured? My cousin's mother is not Jewish. He went on a birthright trip and said he felt at home in Israel. When we gathered for my dad's birthday he talked about how great it is being more religious, not eating pork, keeping milk and meat separate, not doing anything on Saturdays, etc.

My sister and I on the other hand have both Jewish parents. We are not practicing Jews. We both eat pork, eat bread on Passover, don't observe Shabbos, etc. I am a cultural Jew so I do celebrate Rosh Hashanah and Passover but that's about it. My mom goes to the synagogue regularly but to the extent I go there is to socialize with people. I am agnostic. I do believe god exists but I don't believe in organized religion as people currently practice it. What I don't like is the rule that you're Jewish if your mother is Jewish. I would be fine with marrying an Ashkenazi but not an observant Jew. My cousin is more observant than I am. It's strange I will always be considered Jewish (even if I eat pork) while my cousin may not always be accepted as a Jew due to the gender of his Jewish parent, even though he said he felt at home in Israel.

Ultimately if someone wants to continue with Jewish traditions they will. If they don't want to they won't. It has nothing to do with who they marry.
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Old 04-28-2019, 05:36 AM
 
45 posts, read 19,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gorgeouspink View Post
I think we should stop framing intermarriage as a problem. We're just going to alienate people. We should accept all types of marriages.



How is this statistic measured? My cousin's mother is not Jewish. He went on a birthright trip and said he felt at home in Israel. When we gathered for my dad's birthday he talked about how great it is being more religious, not eating pork, keeping milk and meat separate, not doing anything on Saturdays, etc.

My sister and I on the other hand have both Jewish parents. We are not practicing Jews. We both eat pork, eat bread on Passover, don't observe Shabbos, etc. I am a cultural Jew so I do celebrate Rosh Hashanah and Passover but that's about it. My mom goes to the synagogue regularly but to the extent I go there is to socialize with people. I am agnostic. I do believe god exists but I don't believe in organized religion as people currently practice it. What I don't like is the rule that you're Jewish if your mother is Jewish. I would be fine with marrying an Ashkenazi but not an observant Jew. My cousin is more observant than I am. It's strange I will always be considered Jewish (even if I eat pork) while my cousin may not always be accepted as a Jew due to the gender of his Jewish parent, even though he said he felt at home in Israel.

Ultimately if someone wants to continue with Jewish traditions they will. If they don't want to they won't. It has nothing to do with who they marry.
Hi,

I definitely agree with you that we should not alienate people. I do think however, that we can be welcoming without condoning intermarriage. I also believe that the companions we choose definitely affect our spiritual journey and growth.

I understand that a lot of people are affected personally by intermarriage and because of it form strong opinions, but sometimes we have to rise above our personal perspectives and see the facts the way they are. The Pew Study is an independent, non-biased study that uses valid methodology and it is not the only study that points to similar conclusions. When you have so much data pointing to the same conclusion it is hard to argue that there is not an issue.

Let’s get beyond this and talk about your own situation and how we can help. The religious law is what it is and it is not something you or I can change. If your cousin is that in to Judaism why not take the next step and convert? Conversion is a positive experience where one learns more about Judaism, something I would think your cousin would embrace.

As far as your own beliefs, I am interested to know why you are not interested in religion. You say you believe in G-d, did you realize that the first people to recognize G-d in a world that did not believe in monotheism were the Matriarchs and Patriarchs of your religion, they form the basis of all of the major monotheistic religions of the world. In fact all of our beliefs about the nature of G-d come from our religion. What is it that turns you off about Judaism? Have you taken the time to look deeper into your religion and heritage? If so what resources have you used? Did you receive a Jewish education while you were growing up? If so did you find it to be a positive experience? If not why?

Last edited by Maccabee36; 04-28-2019 at 06:06 AM..
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Old 04-28-2019, 05:42 AM
 
32,063 posts, read 32,962,795 times
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My older nephew (son of my sister) is a product of intermarriage as his father isn't Jewish. When it came time for his Bar Mitzva, he said he wasn't sure he wanted to be Jewish. A Chabad rabbi told him that he is Jewish whether he likes it or not and therefore the question is only whether he wants to act like a Jewish man or not. This convinced my older nephew to participate in his own Bar Mitzva ceremony!
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Old 04-28-2019, 08:01 AM
 
9 posts, read 944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maccabee36 View Post
Hi,

I definitely agree with you that we should not alienate people. I do think however, that we can be welcoming without condoning intermarriage. I also believe that the companions we choose definitely affect our spiritual journey and growth.

I understand that a lot of people are affected personally by intermarriage and because of it form strong opinions, but sometimes we have to rise above our personal perspectives and see the facts the way they are. The Pew Study is an independent, non-biased study that uses valid methodology and it is not the only study that points to similar conclusions. When you have so much data pointing to the same conclusion it is hard to argue that there is not an issue.

Let’s get beyond this and talk about your own situation and how we can help. The religious law is what it is and it is not something you or I can change. If your cousin is that in to Judaism why not take the next step and convert? Conversion is a positive experience where one learns more about Judaism, something I would think your cousin would embrace.

As far as your own beliefs, I am interested to know why you are not interested in religion. You say you believe in G-d, did you realize that the first people to recognize G-d in a world that did not believe in monotheism were the Matriarchs and Patriarchs of your religion, they form the basis of all of the major monotheistic religions of the world. In fact all of our beliefs about the nature of G-d come from our religion. What is it that turns you off about Judaism? Have you taken the time to look deeper into your religion and heritage? If so what resources have you used? Did you receive a Jewish education while you were growing up? If so did you find it to be a positive experience? If not why?
We don't have to condone it, but we don't have to condemn it either. That will end up alienating people. To me sounds no different than Christians shaming their relatives for not being "good Christians".
I had a conversation with my father once about the guys I would like to date. He said he didn't approve because he doesn't want a son in law like that (and the guy also came from a Jewish background). I told him fine if he doesn't like it we don't have to have contact. I'm not looking for anyone’s approval. I would think someone who is not interested in Judaism to begin with would be more likely to accept a non-Jewish partner. I mean, an atheist Ashkenazi couple won't raise their kids Jewish either.
For my own beliefs I believe modern organized religion is harmful. As for my cousin I don't know why he should convert. His father is Jewish and he is a practicing Jew. He shouldn't have to go through a conversion process. The problem is the Jewish community should be more welcoming to kids of interfaith marriages.
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Old 04-28-2019, 08:09 AM
 
Location: US
27,956 posts, read 15,043,765 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
My older nephew (son of my sister) is a product of intermarriage as his father isn't Jewish. When it came time for his Bar Mitzva, he said he wasn't sure he wanted to be Jewish. A Chabad rabbi told him that he is Jewish whether he likes it or not and therefore the question is only whether he wants to act like a Jewish man or not. This convinced my older nephew to participate in his own Bar Mitzva ceremony!
Did he participate in his own bris?...
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Old 04-28-2019, 02:25 PM
 
81 posts, read 14,432 times
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I didn't read all 14 pages of this thread, but I will say that while in reality you can't control who your kids will ultimately marry, if you give them a strong sense of who they are and have them understand how important (and beautiful) being Jewish is, it's easier. I have a sign that was made for me in my living room that says, "As for me and my house, NO POSTHUMOUS VICTORY!" It comes form a slogan that was in a lot of traditional Jewish homes after WWII, "No posthumous victory for Hitler", meaning that we HAVE to keep our heritage alive, or we die out and Hitler still wins. It's very powerful for me.
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Old 04-28-2019, 02:45 PM
 
Location: Long Island
1,713 posts, read 1,385,836 times
Reputation: 1405
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorgeouspink View Post
I think we should stop framing intermarriage as a problem. We're just going to alienate people. We should accept all types of marriages.



How is this statistic measured? My cousin's mother is not Jewish. He went on a birthright trip and said he felt at home in Israel. When we gathered for my dad's birthday he talked about how great it is being more religious, not eating pork, keeping milk and meat separate, not doing anything on Saturdays, etc.

My sister and I on the other hand have both Jewish parents. We are not practicing Jews. We both eat pork, eat bread on Passover, don't observe Shabbos, etc. I am a cultural Jew so I do celebrate Rosh Hashanah and Passover but that's about it. My mom goes to the synagogue regularly but to the extent I go there is to socialize with people. I am agnostic. I do believe god exists but I don't believe in organized religion as people currently practice it. What I don't like is the rule that you're Jewish if your mother is Jewish. I would be fine with marrying an Ashkenazi but not an observant Jew. My cousin is more observant than I am. It's strange I will always be considered Jewish (even if I eat pork) while my cousin may not always be accepted as a Jew due to the gender of his Jewish parent, even though he said he felt at home in Israel.

Ultimately if someone wants to continue with Jewish traditions they will. If they don't want to they won't. It has nothing to do with who they marry.
Your story illustrates one of the issues of intermarriage:

Your cousin, for all of his observance, is not Jewish (assuming he has not undergone a halachic conversion).
You sister and you, for all of your avoidance, are.
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Old 04-28-2019, 04:26 PM
 
45 posts, read 19,702 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorgeouspink View Post
We don't have to condone it, but we don't have to condemn it either. That will end up alienating people. To me sounds no different than Christians shaming their relatives for not being "good Christians".
I had a conversation with my father once about the guys I would like to date. He said he didn't approve because he doesn't want a son in law like that (and the guy also came from a Jewish background). I told him fine if he doesn't like it we don't have to have contact. I'm not looking for anyone’s approval. I would think someone who is not interested in Judaism to begin with would be more likely to accept a non-Jewish partner. I mean, an atheist Ashkenazi couple won't raise their kids Jewish either.
For my own beliefs I believe modern organized religion is harmful. As for my cousin I don't know why he should convert. His father is Jewish and he is a practicing Jew. He shouldn't have to go through a conversion process. The problem is the Jewish community should be more welcoming to kids of interfaith marriages.
Hi,

I don’t think anyone is trying to shame anyone else. It is an issue however that needs to be discussed though because it is it is an important religious precept and ultimately vital for our survival.

The law about who is a Jew isn’t something people came up with today to be mean or exclusionary. It has been around for thousands of years and is based on what we believe G-d wants us to do. There is also a law in Judaism by the way that forbids intermarriage. It seems to me that as we unravel Jewish Law we slide further and further down a slippery slope. Let’s give an example. If a child’s father had not intermarried to begin with he would be considered a Jew. If the idea of Patrilineal descent had not been made up and his farther wanted him to be a Jew he probably would have converted to Judaism as a baby which would have been a lot easier. Now in order to be a Jew he needs to convert and go through the process of studying which makes life harder, but it is that or take the easy way out and continue to practice Judaism as a non-Jew. Sometimes in life it is better to take the harder road because that is the one that is the most rewarding and will ultimately gain the child the most acceptance. I would think that is what you would want for your cousin.

I also don’t believe that just because a Jew is an atheist that the Jew should marry a non-Jew. A person can change overtime and grow spiritually wouldn’t it be better to be with a Jewish partner if that happens. Also what about the children. You may end up having a situation where a Jewish child is being raised in another religion or a non-Jewish child is born that could have been a Jewish one.

I would like to understand why you believe that organized religion causes harm. I know that you mentioned your cousin’s situation but is there more to it than that? If so what specifically?
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Old 04-28-2019, 04:44 PM
 
32,063 posts, read 32,962,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Did he participate in his own bris?...
My nephew was born with a birth defect (in that part of his body!). So he had naming (non-bris) ceremony performed by a Mohel approx. 10 days after his birth and his bris was done a year later when he had corrective surgery at a hospital and the mohel was in attendance as was my father who came specially from Israel for this as well for the naming (non-bris) ceremony.
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