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Old 02-05-2019, 11:30 AM
 
584 posts, read 504,139 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
I am torn.
I recognize that we aren't supposed to be trying to make sense of a divine plan, and that we aren't supposed to look for direct causal links (there was a tidal wave because people intermarry, a hurricane because of eating shrimp, or a genocide because of wearing shatnez) but I also know that we try to make sense of the world and that the talmud, in kiddushin does talk about bad things happening to good people, and trying to account for punishments in this life because that clears the soul for the next world. So there is some sort of practice of linking rewards and punishments to specific actions, or for specific reasons.
So I'm torn.
First, please forgive me for somehow missing your post.

With all due respect to those who gifted us with the Talmud, it seems to me that their worldview was laced with anthropomorphisms. I personally believe that Torah - however inspired - was a human literary effort plagued with similar naivete. I simply do not believe that any god worth the name is vulnerable to the rules of inference.
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Old 02-05-2019, 12:18 PM
 
Location: NJ
1,382 posts, read 494,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule View Post
First, please forgive me for somehow missing your post.

With all due respect to those who gifted us with the Talmud, it seems to me that their worldview was laced with anthropomorphisms. I personally believe that Torah - however inspired - was a human literary effort plagued with similar naivete. I simply do not believe that any god worth the name is vulnerable to the rules of inference.
Part of what inspires the talmudic discussion is the occasional Trak statement of "do ____ so that you will live a long life". If the text lays out a direct cause and effect between positive action and a particular reward, how do we reconcile when that reward doesn't happen? So the sages wrestled with a torah-text based system -- not inference, explicit promise.

If one starts with a different understanding of the role of and source of the text, then, yes, one will have a different understanding of the composition, method and reliability of the text.
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Old 02-05-2019, 01:52 PM
 
584 posts, read 504,139 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
If one starts with a different understanding of the role of and source of the text, then, yes, one will have a different understanding of the composition, method and reliability of the text.
Yes, thank you for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
If one starts with a different understanding of the role of and source of the text, then, yes, one will have a different understanding of the composition, method and reliability of the text.
Again, yes.
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Old 02-09-2019, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,353 posts, read 24,089,891 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Very interesting thought...
Have you forgotten what he stated a few years ago? This is just a repeat using poetic words when he stated that the European Jews deserved to die.

WW2 was a pruning of the giants of European Jewry. Pruning is killing.
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Old 02-09-2019, 07:44 PM
 
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Jews don't deserve to die. However there are consequences for Jews when Jews seek to assimilate. Whether that is the Holocaust in the time and place of modern Jews rejecting Torah.

Or the same as during time of Haman. What happened then and there was a direct result of Jews taking on the ways of the nations instead of following Torah.

That is not blaming anyone. It is a natural consequence. Intermarriage and assimilation destroy Jews and destroy Judaism.

Choosing secular ways over Torah is trading something of immense value for a cheap trinket made of paste.
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Old 02-09-2019, 07:53 PM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,685,110 times
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" If we engage in the process of forgetfulness, we reach the state that our ancestors reached in Shushan. Though we never set out to reach that stage, we are responsible for having reached it. Our sages taught that we are responsible for the Torah knowledge that we forget because forgetfulness results from idleness. When we choose to sit idly, rather than study, we are responsible for the consequences of our choice. The same applies to assimilation. When we choose to pursue foreign cultures, rather than our own, we are responsible for our resultant assimilation."

https://m.jpost.com/Blogs/Lifes-Litt...ilation-448615
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Old 02-09-2019, 08:19 PM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,685,110 times
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With regards to the opening post and losing "Torah giants" it is also very much a part of Judaism that great tzaddikim negotiate in the heavenly realms to take on suffering personally themselves to reduce the burden of suffering of the Jewish people as a whole.

What are they doing now? Helping the Jewish people from the heavenly realms. A tzaddik has greater influence after death than during their life. That too is part of Judaism.

“Tzaddikim are greater in their death than they were in their lifetime” (Chullin 7b).

https://breslov.org/dvar-torah-for-lag-b’omer/

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-09-2019 at 08:51 PM..
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Old 02-09-2019, 08:28 PM
 
3,951 posts, read 3,339,069 times
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Tzaph, as usual, you are spot on. Pruz was paraphrasing in his own words what he thinks I said many years ago. ( now he’ll go find that post Moderator cut: edit). My point in this thread is much like you said, the shoa was not random. It wasn’t a triumph of evil over Hashem, as if that were possible. Yes, there are consequences for the behavior of the Jewish people.

Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 02-11-2019 at 06:29 AM.. Reason: Unnecessary personal remark
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Old 02-10-2019, 03:26 AM
 
Location: US
27,956 posts, read 15,043,765 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
With regards to the opening post and losing "Torah giants" it is also very much a part of Judaism that great tzaddikim negotiate in the heavenly realms to take on suffering personally themselves to reduce the burden of suffering of the Jewish people as a whole.

What are they doing now? Helping the Jewish people from the heavenly realms. A tzaddik has greater influence after death than during their life. That too is part of Judaism.

“Tzaddikim are greater in their death than they were in their lifetime” (Chullin 7b).

https://breslov.org/dvar-torah-for-lag-b’omer/
How does that square with resurrection?...
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Old 02-10-2019, 03:29 AM
 
Location: US
27,956 posts, read 15,043,765 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Have you forgotten what he stated a few years ago? This is just a repeat using poetic words when he stated that the European Jews deserved to die.

WW2 was a pruning of the giants of European Jewry. Pruning is killing.
I must have missed that post...
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