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Old 02-03-2019, 09:20 PM
 
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I heard an interesting idea this Shabbos. We know European Jewry was virtually destroyed during WW2. All the great yeshivas were destroyed along with rabbis the like we’ll never see again. How could all these righteous Torah giants be killed?

Let’s first be clear. Nothing can happen against Hashem’s will. Nothing. So that means all these greats were killed with G-d’s permission. So how can that be? What kind of a G-d destroys the finest of His children?

The simple answer is of course we can’t possibly understand. But think of this moshel: why do you trim a tree? To clean it up and thereby make it stronger and more beautiful. When you prune, where do you do it? You prune the heaviest of the sections of the tree that are the most robust. And when you do so, it grows back much stronger

WW2 was a pruning of the giants of European Jewry. We don’t know what happened with those precious neshamos - but perhaps they are standing by Hashem’s “side” feeling the eternal warmth and love of Hashem. And perhaps this is the final pruning needed to usher in moschiach. May this long and terrible exile end and may we merit to see moschiach in our time..
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Old 02-04-2019, 03:12 AM
 
Location: US
27,985 posts, read 15,057,939 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
I heard an interesting idea this Shabbos. We know European Jewry was virtually destroyed during WW2. All the great yeshivas were destroyed along with rabbis the like we’ll never see again. How could all these righteous Torah giants be killed?

Let’s first be clear. Nothing can happen against Hashem’s will. Nothing. So that means all these greats were killed with G-d’s permission. So how can that be? What kind of a G-d destroys the finest of His children?

The simple answer is of course we can’t possibly understand. But think of this moshel: why do you trim a tree? To clean it up and thereby make it stronger and more beautiful. When you prune, where do you do it? You prune the heaviest of the sections of the tree that are the most robust. And when you do so, it grows back much stronger

WW2 was a pruning of the giants of European Jewry. We don’t know what happened with those precious neshamos - but perhaps they are standing by Hashem’s “side” feeling the eternal warmth and love of Hashem. And perhaps this is the final pruning needed to usher in moschiach. May this long and terrible exile end and may we merit to see moschiach in our time..
Very interesting thought...
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Old 02-04-2019, 05:27 AM
 
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Perhaps it was a pruning to help with the establishment of the modern state of Israel?!
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Old 02-04-2019, 07:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
Perhaps it was a pruning to help with the establishment of the modern state of Israel?!
How so? Was it to silence the Torah in favor Of Zionism? Hashem suddenly decided his Torah was null and void, to be replaced with a worship of the land instead of Him?
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Old 02-05-2019, 05:51 AM
 
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There are few attempts to deal with the Problem of Evil so thoroughly disgusting as these casual variations on holocaust theology.
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Old 02-05-2019, 07:28 AM
 
Location: NJ
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Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule View Post
There are few attempts to deal with the Problem of Evil so thoroughly disgusting as these casual variations on holocaust theology.
I am torn.
I recognize that we aren't supposed to be trying to make sense of a divine plan, and that we aren't supposed to look for direct causal links (there was a tidal wave because people intermarry, a hurricane because of eating shrimp, or a genocide because of wearing shatnez) but I also know that we try to make sense of the world and that the talmud, in kiddushin does talk about bad things happening to good people, and trying to account for punishments in this life because that clears the soul for the next world. So there is some sort of practice of linking rewards and punishments to specific actions, or for specific reasons.
So I'm torn.
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Old 02-05-2019, 08:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule View Post
There are few attempts to deal with the Problem of Evil so thoroughly disgusting as these casual variations on holocaust theology.
So is it your position that Hashem was unable to stop this evil from occurring? That somehow “evil” is a greater force than Hashem Himself?
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Old 02-05-2019, 08:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rosends View Post
I am torn.
I recognize that we aren't supposed to be trying to make sense of a divine plan, and that we aren't supposed to look for direct causal links (there was a tidal wave because people intermarry, a hurricane because of eating shrimp, or a genocide because of wearing shatnez) but I also know that we try to make sense of the world and that the talmud, in kiddushin does talk about bad things happening to good people, and trying to account for punishments in this life because that clears the soul for the next world. So there is some sort of practice of linking rewards and punishments to specific actions, or for specific reasons.
So I'm torn.
Rosends, I love your Torah, but let me also clarify with you. I made no casual connection in my OP. I did not give a specific cause for the holocaust. Rather, I stated that it, like every action that occurs in the world, is an act ordained by Hashem. Not caused... but ordained. An event in history as impactful as the shoa is simply easier to make the connection that it happened because somehow, on some level, Hashem felt it either in our best interest, or somehow necessary for the greater good.

I don’t pretend to understand what the exact cheshbon was that He wanted to make, but I trust with complete bitochim that it happened as it was supposed to and that Hashem loves His people.
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Old 02-05-2019, 10:14 AM
 
584 posts, read 504,360 times
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Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
So is it your position that Hashem was unable to stop this evil from occurring? That somehow “evil” is a greater force than Hashem Himself?
My position is that the book of Job is a brilliant polemic against the primitive Reward and Punishment theology manifest in earlier scripture. It's answers may not be satisfying, but to think that we should be able to intuit the nature of preternatural agency strikes me as little more than hubris.

Parenthetically, you might wish to read here before pursuing the metaphor.

L'shalom.
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Old 02-05-2019, 11:02 AM
 
Location: NJ
1,391 posts, read 496,317 times
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Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Rosends, I love your Torah, but let me also clarify with you. I made no casual connection in my OP. I did not give a specific cause for the holocaust. Rather, I stated that it, like every action that occurs in the world, is an act ordained by Hashem. Not caused... but ordained. An event in history as impactful as the shoa is simply easier to make the connection that it happened because somehow, on some level, Hashem felt it either in our best interest, or somehow necessary for the greater good.

I don’t pretend to understand what the exact cheshbon was that He wanted to make, but I trust with complete bitochim that it happened as it was supposed to and that Hashem loves His people.
I didn't make my comment as a response to anything you said, just as a response to the raised issue of any attempt to explain schar v'onesh and connect them to human events. I was just opining. Apologies if it seemed judgmental -- it was supposed to reflect only my own ambivalence.
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