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Old 03-13-2019, 02:26 AM
 
Location: US
27,953 posts, read 15,039,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Strike 2. The term Hasidic does not apply to American Torah Observant Jews.
The Jews in Lakewood refer to themselves as Chasidic...
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:31 AM
 
Location: Long Island
1,711 posts, read 1,385,393 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Don't put your words in my mouth. I mentioned behaviors. And i have always said a Jew is a Jew and i intentionally avoid the labels you continue to use.
They're your words exactly, and you still didn't answer my question.
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:34 AM
 
Location: US
27,953 posts, read 15,039,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
I think the use of the word Religious, with regards to Jews, means they follow the Torah - all of it, as explained by chazal and practiced by frum Yidden. R and C Jews who are halachiclly Jewish are certainly 100% Jewish. But clearly they fall short in Torah observance, and so to call them religious is an insult to them, ie, if they’re not following Torah based Jewish religion, then what religion are they following? It’s much kinder to frei Yidden not to call them religious. <cue angry snarky reply>
Frei is used, in reality, with only negative connotations. It assumes the person is holding “zero” in yiddishkeit, and gives a feeling of exclusion, which is not right. It also throws into the garbage all the other concepts we should hold to such as dan l’chaf zcheus, tinok shenisba, only Hashem can take someone’s cheszbin, etc…etc. And, almost 100% of the time, when someone inquires if someone is frum or frei, upon hearing they are frei, all interest goes out the window. - https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coff...rei-and-shiksa
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Old 03-13-2019, 04:47 AM
 
Location: NJ
1,377 posts, read 493,994 times
Reputation: 590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
The future and continuance of Judaism is and always has been Torah, Hashem, halachah, and Jewish education for our children.
You mean the understanding of Torah and its origins and interpretation which you accept as proper as you reject other opinions about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Not the dismantling and discarding and rejection of those.
But that's just what you label someone who sees the entire halachic process differently. If I see the goal as continuation of the people within a logical and socio-historical framework, I allow patrilineal descent. You reject it. I could use the same claims against you. Over time, the religion has changed and you are insisting that your vision of that change is the only one and the only proper one. I'm not saying otherwise, but just pointing out that people from other denominations can say exactly the same thing back to you. Each group has its own blinders on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
That has not changed. Emes (truth) does not change. G-d does not change. Torah is the life blood of every Jew because Torah is what connects us to Hashem. Walking away from Torah and choosing assimilation and intermarriage has always had horrific disastrous decimating results on Jews and Judaism.
Truth does not change, but if you start with a different understanding of that truth, then what hasn't changed will look very different from what someone else thinks hasn't changed. The Reform movement might believe that Torah, the cultural/ethnic history of a an evolving tribal system was never divine rule, so the fact that it still isn't, and is still changing IS truth. Where you start determines where you end up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
It's not what I say. It's what our sages say for the last 3320 some years. And they have far more credibility and kedushah than those who reject Torah, halachah, and Jewish education.
There have always been other voices who were rejected by someone's idea of a mainstream. There have been variants in the definition and development of halacha and in the structure and role of Jewish education. Many of these changes we seem to embrace as "good" evolution, but others get labeled "rejection."
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Old 03-13-2019, 06:23 AM
 
Location: Long Island
1,711 posts, read 1,385,393 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
You mean the understanding of Torah and its origins and interpretation which you accept as proper as you reject other opinions about it.

But that's just what you label someone who sees the entire halachic process differently. If I see the goal as continuation of the people within a logical and socio-historical framework, I allow patrilineal descent. You reject it. I could use the same claims against you. Over time, the religion has changed and you are insisting that your vision of that change is the only one and the only proper one. I'm not saying otherwise, but just pointing out that people from other denominations can say exactly the same thing back to you. Each group has its own blinders on.

Truth does not change, but if you start with a different understanding of that truth, then what hasn't changed will look very different from what someone else thinks hasn't changed. The Reform movement might believe that Torah, the cultural/ethnic history of a an evolving tribal system was never divine rule, so the fact that it still isn't, and is still changing IS truth. Where you start determines where you end up.

There have always been other voices who were rejected by someone's idea of a mainstream. There have been variants in the definition and development of halacha and in the structure and role of Jewish education. Many of these changes we seem to embrace as "good" evolution, but others get labeled "rejection."
Thank you. You put that far more eloquently and diplomatically than I could have.
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Old 03-13-2019, 07:06 AM
 
3,942 posts, read 3,337,959 times
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Rosends, you’re for sure a sweet man for having such a large inclusive tent. That’s a great way to bring moschiach. Your reassuring words are good example of where saying falsehood can be emesdik.
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:37 AM
 
392 posts, read 122,366 times
Reputation: 517
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Strike 2. The term Hasidic does not apply to American Torah Observant Jews.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben Shunamit View Post
It does to some. Ever been to Boro Park? Williamsburg? Crown Heights? Kiryas Yoel?
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
I’ve spent time in every one of those communities (ok, KY was just a drive-by to say I’d been there), and I’ve never met one American frum Yid who calls himself Hareidi. Add to that list Lakewood, Muncie and Flatbush. Still never heard it. Next you’re going to say there are Dati Lumi in the US?
Re-read the above. I didn't say anything about Hareidim, and neither did you. The term Hasidic DOES apply to many Torah-observant American Jews in Boro Park, Williamsburg, Crown Heights, Kiryas Yoel and other places all over the country.
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:58 AM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,683,396 times
Reputation: 9156
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
You mean the understanding of Torah and its origins and interpretation which you accept as proper as you reject other opinions about it.

But that's just what you label someone who sees the entire halachic process differently. If I see the goal as continuation of the people within a logical and socio-historical framework, I allow patrilineal descent. You reject it. I could use the same claims against you. Over time, the religion has changed and you are insisting that your vision of that change is the only one and the only proper one. I'm not saying otherwise, but just pointing out that people from other denominations can say exactly the same thing back to you. Each group has its own blinders on.

Truth does not change, but if you start with a different understanding of that truth, then what hasn't changed will look very different from what someone else thinks hasn't changed. The Reform movement might believe that Torah, the cultural/ethnic history of a an evolving tribal system was never divine rule, so the fact that it still isn't, and is still changing IS truth. Where you start determines where you end up.

There have always been other voices who were rejected by someone's idea of a mainstream. There have been variants in the definition and development of halacha and in the structure and role of Jewish education. Many of these changes we seem to embrace as "good" evolution, but others get labeled "rejection."
The phrases in bold are crucial.

Where you start determines where you end up.
This rests on a person, a leader, or a group identifying their motivation. What changes are they making and why? What are they throwing overboard and why? What is their intention? What is their motivation? What's driving the bus? What do they hope to achieve?

Many of these changes we seem to embrace as "good" but others get labeled "rejection"
Again this rests on a person or group or leader identifying what their criteria are for determining "good" or "rejection."

We have free will, and if "variants start up," which they have throughout history, where have they led? Look at the results. Look at the outcome.
If a person (any person) does not study their history and learn from their history, they are bound to repeat the same mistakes over and over. If we as Jews do not study our history and learn from our history, we are bound to repeat the same mistakes over and over. We have free will to do so. And we continue to do so.

The Torah is not ancient history. It is happening now. In our daily life and in our current events.

Shabbatai Zvi is a "variant." Hellenized Jews are a "variant." Crstnty is a "variant." Korach is a "variant." The Baal Shem Tov is a "variant." The Haskalah is a "variant."

And again look at the outcome, the results, for each of these. What did each of these "variants" lead to? What has been the outcome for each of these? Did they last? Were they embraced? Are they growing or are they declining? What impact have they had on Judaism, and how Jews are treated individually and collectively? What impact have they had on Judaism in the home?

"the end is hidden in the beginning." the motivation shapes the outcome. a mitzvah leads to a mitzvah. a transgression leads to a transgression. a person is led in the way he wants to go.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 03-13-2019 at 10:38 AM..
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:22 AM
 
Location: NJ
1,377 posts, read 493,994 times
Reputation: 590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Shabbatai Zvi was a "variant." Hellenized Jews were a "variant." Crstnty is a "variant." Korach is a "variant." The Baal Shem Tov was a "variant." Chassidus was a "variant." The Haskalah was a "variant."

And again look at the outcome, the results, for each of these. What did each of these "variants" lead to? What has been the outcome for each of these? Did they last? Were they embraced? Are they growing or are they declining? What impact have they had on Judaism? What impact have they had on Judaism in the home?
I think that if you ask different people, you will find that their sense of what the outcome for each has been (either as a whole or in its impact on others) will be quite different. The variety of subtle flavors of movements within movements and their constant separation and coalescing, influencing and swaying each other have been evaluated over history with different conclusions drawn. Different people accept and reject different varieties, for different reasons, some more reasonable than others. Different people recognize impact in ways that others don't recognize, or respect. The calculus is not simple so the response shouldn't be.
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:05 AM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,683,396 times
Reputation: 9156
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
I think that if you ask different people, you will find that their sense of what the outcome for each has been (either as a whole or in its impact on others) will be quite different. The variety of subtle flavors of movements within movements and their constant separation and coalescing, influencing and swaying each other have been evaluated over history with different conclusions drawn. Different people accept and reject different varieties, for different reasons, some more reasonable than others. Different people recognize impact in ways that others don't recognize, or respect. The calculus is not simple so the response shouldn't be.
the point in asking those questions is not to have them answered in an online forum. The simple exercise of a person identifying within themself "I choose this because..." "I reject this because..." "I consider this good because..." has tremendous value. Because it identifies our motivations and what it is we value, what's driving the bus in the choices we make.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 03-13-2019 at 11:27 AM..
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