U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Judaism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 07-10-2019, 11:19 AM
 
577 posts, read 57,385 times
Reputation: 368

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
And if your doctor recommends you do something contrary to Halacha? (Assuming not life threatening). I’m starting to see a theme here - many non frum Jews think doctors are of higher esteem and capability to know Hashem’s will than rabbis. Maybe it has something to do with the rabbis you know?

You were doing so well, for awhile, TFF. Please don't go back to being judgmental of your fellow Jews.

Taking a doctor's advice on matters of health does not imply that one holds one's rabbi in less esteem.

Last edited by Rachel NewYork; 07-10-2019 at 11:29 AM..
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-10-2019, 02:15 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,803 posts, read 10,711,160 times
Reputation: 2522
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Moving this out of a different thread in order to be respectful not to go off topic on that thread.

I’m curious where all my fellow Jews find their source of morality. In other words how do you determine right from wrong, or the correct route to handle difficult situations in life.

During Passover this year, one of my relatives told me they were unable to eat matzoh this year. Apparently it upsets his stomach, and his doctor told him he shouldn’t eat it. So I followed up with a question and asked what their rabbi said about it when they asked. The response I got nearly floored me. the answer I got, was what in the world does a rabbi have to do with this? I know with myself, I don’t make any important decisions in my life without consulting my Rav. But I also know the vast majority of Jews do not pray at a synagogue with a Qualified halachic decider.

If you don’t have/want/think you need a rabbi to help you with life’s tough decisions, and you’re not steeped in Torah, then what sources do you use to know how to proceed in life?

1. the reality is the vast majority of C Jews (there is no other considerable body of non O Jews who take halacha seriously in the way you mean) are not observant of halacha when its inconvenient even for matters less important than health. And yes, that is still true for many O Jews. Even for some haredi Jews, when the halacha is about something like lashen hara, rather than kashrut or shabbat observence.

2. The standard official approach in C Judaism would be to go to your local C rabbi, and tell them your doctors opinion. I imagine they would be more lenient on a case like this than many O rabbis, but I think even some O rabbis would not be too literal about "saving a life".

3. Do not conflate halacha with morality. "its possible to be a cad within the law" Following the paskening of an halachic authority does not relieve you from the burden of moral choice. I mean you can decide to follow a rov on ALL life decisions if you choose, but that is different from paskening. Its also, to me, an escape from what makes us human, from what Hashem calls on us to do and to be. But I understand that wrestling with what is moral is hard, and some fear it, and I think that may be the reason SOME flee to the BT movement (and its non-Jewish equivalents)

4. For life decisions in general, I rely on my conscience and judgement. I am a man of almost 60. I have studied and thought about halacha and OTHER JEWISH THOUGHT since I was a teenager, and and secular philosophy and ethics and social science almost as long. I have had life experiences. I do not quake at making a judgement. When I feel I cannot make up my mind myself, I will ask people I respect - including my wife, my adult child, my rabbi. I will also consult relevant texts - including Jewish thinkers and other worthy thinkers.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-10-2019, 02:16 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,803 posts, read 10,711,160 times
Reputation: 2522
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
And if your doctor recommends you do something contrary to Halacha? (Assuming not life threatening). I’m starting to see a theme here - many non frum Jews think doctors are of higher esteem and capability to know Hashem’s will than rabbis. Maybe it has something to do with the rabbis you know?
I think some of us have a different view of theology and metahalacha than you do.

Note what follows is NOT the official stand of the C movement, but it IS the position of one leading C rabbi, that informs the views of some more committed C Jews:

(R' Gordon) Tucker, in his writings about the Torah and the nature of divine revelation, is a leader within Conservative Judaism in articulating a position between the traditional view that the Torah is of divine origin, and a secular view, in which the Torah is seen entirely as a work of human creation. He writes, "It is the particular characteristic of Conservative Judaism to insist that religious authority is a partnership, that it comes from the reality of a revealing God and the equally inescapable reality of a seeking, evolving community through which God's words get expressed over time." The Torah, according to Tucker, "is not a record of commanding utterances from God, but rather a record of the religious quests of a people, and of their understanding of how God’s will commands them."[1]
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-10-2019, 03:58 PM
 
3,959 posts, read 3,341,414 times
Reputation: 1246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
You were doing so well, for awhile, TFF. Please don't go back to being judgmental of your fellow Jews.

Taking a doctor's advice on matters of health does not imply that one holds one's rabbi in less esteem.
Judgmental? You know, in my experience, non observant Jews with giant beautiful neshamas often mistake Orthodox Jews as being judgmental. But it’s only your Jewish neshama screaming at you to pick it up a notch. I assure you your perception of my judgmentalness is not about me, but rather about your Jewish innards begging you to be, well... sorry for the judgmental sounding term, but more Jewish. <feel free to cue indignation and refuse to turn the mirror on yourself>
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-10-2019, 04:00 PM
 
3,959 posts, read 3,341,414 times
Reputation: 1246
BBD: “flee to the BT movement?” Oye. I can’t think of a more self hating ugly thing for a Jew to say. As if it’s a bad thing to up your Torah observance? Disgusting.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-10-2019, 04:07 PM
 
Location: small Southern town balabusta
1,133 posts, read 1,432,423 times
Reputation: 756
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
And who knows, you may still change, even on the Halacha that makes less sense.
Yes. We're supposed to follow halacha whether it makes sense or not, though. I'm working on it.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-10-2019, 04:10 PM
 
3,959 posts, read 3,341,414 times
Reputation: 1246
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1+1=5 View Post
Yes. We're supposed to follow halacha whether it makes sense or not, though. I'm working on it.
I know you are. And I admire that.

Hashgacha pratis - this week’s parsha in chutz l’oretz is Chukas. Perfect opportunity to ponder this.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-10-2019, 08:55 PM
 
577 posts, read 57,385 times
Reputation: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Judgmental? You know, in my experience, non observant Jews with giant beautiful neshamas often mistake Orthodox Jews as being judgmental. But it’s only your Jewish neshama screaming at you to pick it up a notch. I assure you your perception of my judgmentalness is not about me, but rather about your Jewish innards begging you to be, well... sorry for the judgmental sounding term, but more Jewish. <feel free to cue indignation and refuse to turn the mirror on yourself>
You seriously think that I'm "less Jewish" than you because I said: "Taking a doctor's advice on matters of health does not imply that one holds one's rabbi in less esteem."?

And do you think that you're "more Jewish" than everyone else who posted in this topic? "More Jewish" than even Rabbi Menachem Schneerson? (See my previous posting regarding what the good rabbi had to say.)

What exactly is this "more Jewish" and "less Jewish" stuff, anyway? A Jew is a Jew.

I see now that this topic you started was merely another excuse for you to strut your frumtastic ego on this forum. I'm so sad for you.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 05:33 AM
 
3,959 posts, read 3,341,414 times
Reputation: 1246
Enough with the constant attacks, Rachel. You are putting words in my mouth and acting terribly judgmental. Being less frum does not make someone less Jewish. Period! But following “morality” not based on Torah is an opportunity to do better.

Last edited by theflipflop; Yesterday at 05:54 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 05:47 AM
 
577 posts, read 57,385 times
Reputation: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Enough with the constant attacks, Rachel. You are putting words in my mouth and acting terribly judgmental. Being less frum does not make someone less Jewish. Period! But following “morality” not based on Torah is an opportunity to do better. And every time you attack me and try to defend your moral equivalency, it’s clear to me that you are indeed Jewish, but your neshama is “unhappy” with your non Torah based views.

Here's an idea... How about you stop attacking Jews on this forum whom you consider to be "less Jewish" than you are (and you HAVE made those offensive assertions – most recently to me where you wrote: "I assure you your perception of my judgmentalness is not about me, but rather about your Jewish innards begging you to be, well... sorry for the judgmental sounding term, but more Jewish."), and I will stop calling you out on your frumtastic ego?

Quote:
Being less frum does not make someone less Jewish. Period!
Now you're getting the idea. Very good!



Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Judaism
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top