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Old Today, 07:24 AM
 
397 posts, read 122,756 times
Reputation: 518

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976 View Post
Rachel, I agree with you. I've noted his derision toward Jews who are less religious, and the thing about it that bothers me most is this: it gives Gentiles reading this forum a negative impression of (some) Jews as being judgmental and intolerant.

To provide balance to that, I have, as you know, become affiliated with the local Chabad chapter. The Rabbi and Rebbetzin are the two most Orthodox Jews I have ever met, and they are completely welcoming of ANY Jew. In fact, the Rabbi has said "a Jew is a Jew," and he makes no distinction as to degree of observance. It is that level of warmth and welcoming that I wish someone like TFF would aspire.

Also, as an aside, I once asked what his name referred to, and I was told TB. I often find those who "return" (like born-again Christians) to be the most judgmental of all. It's like they go overboard with their new-found zeal.
I agree completely with your middle paragraph. That is also my experience of Chabad, with whom I agree, and I can assure you that the attitudes of your rabbi & rebbetzin stem from actual pronouncements of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and are therefore held by virtually all Chabadniks.

Unfortunately, this attitude is not held by all black-hatted Jews. Pruzhany can (and has) commented on some of this, but I am pretty sure that most orthodox have seen this. The Chabad attitude is probably a minority opinion among black hats. I certainly have no problem with those who fight intolerance, but TFF is certainly a mild case, and, IMO, barely one at all. He certainly does not stand out among frum Yidn as intolerant.

Is it too hard for a Yid to keep a discussion on a conceptual level, and leave derogatory statements about individuals out of the discussion?

 
Old Today, 08:07 AM
 
580 posts, read 57,385 times
Reputation: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976 View Post
Rachel, I agree with you. I've noted his derision toward Jews who are less religious, and the thing about it that bothers me most is this: it gives Gentiles reading this forum a negative impression of (some) Jews as being judgmental and intolerant.

To provide balance to that, I have, as you know, become affiliated with the local Chabad chapter. The Rabbi and Rebbetzin are the two most Orthodox Jews I have ever met, and they are completely welcoming of ANY Jew. In fact, the Rabbi has said "a Jew is a Jew," and he makes no distinction as to degree of observance. It is that level of warmth and welcoming that I wish someone like TFF would aspire.

Also, as an aside, I once asked what his name referred to, and I was told TB. I often find those who "return" (like born-again Christians) to be the most judgmental of all. It's like they go overboard with their new-found zeal.

Thanks, Rachel. I'm also gratified to see that you're not the only one on this forum who sees what is going on here. It bothers me, too, that gentiles reading this forum may form a negative impression of Jews as being judgmental and intolerant. Which is why I was especially gratified to see all the positive responses to the news story that I posted about Jewish-Muslim relations on Long Island.
 
Old Today, 08:29 AM
 
3,962 posts, read 3,341,414 times
Reputation: 1246
RNY, what I think youíre unable to understand, is many of us have been participating in this forum for a decade or more, and other than Pruz who used to cause lots of trouble, this has been a very peaceful forum. That is, until you arrived and declared your way is the only way. Youíre essentially a new guest in this forum and your disruptive behavior could use some introspection. I hope you can see the ugly intolerance youíve displayed and wish you only the best on a journey to getting closer to Hashem.
 
Old Today, 08:33 AM
 
3,962 posts, read 3,341,414 times
Reputation: 1246
Iíve apologized when I felt I went overboard. You just double down with your anger and disgusting personal attacks. And you question my middos? Thatís rich.
 
Old Today, 08:42 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,803 posts, read 10,711,160 times
Reputation: 2522
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
BBD: ďflee to the BT movement?Ē Oye. I canít think of a more self hating ugly thing for a Jew to say. As if itís a bad thing to up your Torah observance? Disgusting.
Maybe truth is ugly, but I think its true for some people. Its obviously not self hating as I am not part of the BT movement (but its not hating the folks who did "flee" - thats a very human choice, and one I have empathy for) . Its obviously possible to increase one's observance of mitzvot without being part of the BT movement, and without allowing a rov to make all life decisions.
 
Old Today, 08:46 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,803 posts, read 10,711,160 times
Reputation: 2522
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Judgmental? You know, in my experience, non observant Jews with giant beautiful neshamas often mistake Orthodox Jews as being judgmental. But itís only your Jewish neshama screaming at you to pick it up a notch. I assure you your perception of my judgmentalness is not about me, but rather about your Jewish innards begging you to be, well... sorry for the judgmental sounding term, but more Jewish. <feel free to cue indignation and refuse to turn the mirror on yourself>
From Open Orthodox, to more mainstream modern Orthodox, to Chabad, to other Haredi, there are a variety of approaches Orthodox jews take wrt to the practices of non-O jews (not all of whom are non-observant BTW) Please do not claim to speak for ALL Orthodox jews, or to assume that reactions to your posts are generalizations about all Orthodox jews.
 
Old Today, 08:48 AM
 
580 posts, read 57,385 times
Reputation: 368
To bring us back on topic... I also happen to base my morality on the writings of Rabbi Alfred J. Kolatch (1916-2007). When I was very young with many questions, a much older, Orthodox (and very wise) member of my Jewish community introduced me to Rabbi Kolatch's wonderful 2-volume set of books titled: The Jewish Book of Why. I highly recommend these books to all (whether you are Jewish or not), along with all of Rabbi Kolatch's other informative writings.

Pertaining to previous discussion in this thread, this is what Rabbi Kolatch had to say about Jewish observance, and why those who are not strict Orthodox may, nevertheless, be considered observant Jews. (I am only going to quote some excerpts from the book, under "fair use" in U.S. copyright law, so as not to be in blatant violation of any copyright laws.)

Quote:
There is a historical basis for this. In the talmudic period (the early centuries C.E.) a more tolerant view of religious commitment prevailed. Rabbi Nehemiah said, "Whoever is faithful to [observes] one commandment [mitzva] is worthy of having the Holy Spirit rest upon him. He is accepted as a full Jew. Rabbi Akiba made the same point, adding that G-d considers the observance of even one commandment a fulfillment of the Covenant between Himself and Israel.

Hence, it is argued that it is commitment to G-d that determines whether one is or is not religious. If one emulates G-d, as pointed out in the Talmud, he is a godly (religious) person regardless of how careful he is to observe all of the ritual laws. To emulate G-d, says the Talmud, means to be merciful just as He is merciful, to visit the sick just as He visits the sick, to bury the dead just as He buries the dead, to comfort mourners just as He comforts mourners.

Moses Maimonides reinforced the above view in his commentary on the Mishna, where he states that if a person observes one of the 613 commandments (mitzvot) properly, with love, he merits thereby life in the world-to-come.
 
Old Today, 08:51 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,803 posts, read 10,711,160 times
Reputation: 2522
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
RNY, what I think youíre unable to understand, is many of us have been participating in this forum for a decade or more, and other than Pruz who used to cause lots of trouble, this has been a very peaceful forum. That is, until you arrived and declared your way is the only way. Youíre essentially a new guest in this forum and your disruptive behavior could use some introspection. I hope you can see the ugly intolerance youíve displayed and wish you only the best on a journey to getting closer to Hashem.
I was here years ago, as you recall, and I would say there were similar disagreements back then. Though my memory is foggy and I am not inclined to search back through old posts.

Have a good shabbos.

This week we learn of the para aduma, the red heifer, which cause the impure to become pure, but paradoxically renders the pure impure. Let us learn from it that life is complex, and cannot be reduced to neat categories, and so to be humble in judgement.
 
Old Today, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,364 posts, read 24,099,835 times
Reputation: 8869
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Wishing you all a good Shabbos. Sorry youíre all feeling so out of sorts. It can be hard to hear what you donít want to hear. But I definitely would appreciate it if you would refrain from all the personal attacks on me. I think if you were to do a proper accounting, you would see I frequently talk about what is emes, but I do not attack personally like many of you have done with me. Youíre all better than that. I hope you come to your senses.
Do you even know what 'emes' is? Do you really think that your version of 'truth' (I guess you forgot the rule that whatever one types in a language other than English must include a translation) is the correct 'truth' without discussion?

Thus you get a little light reading?

https://www.thejc.com/judaism/jewish-words/emet-1.5965
 
Old Today, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,364 posts, read 24,099,835 times
Reputation: 8869
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
RNY, what I think youíre unable to understand, is many of us have been participating in this forum for a decade or more, and other than Pruz who used to cause lots of trouble, this has been a very peaceful forum. That is, until you arrived and declared your way is the only way. Youíre essentially a new guest in this forum and your disruptive behavior could use some introspection. I hope you can see the ugly intolerance youíve displayed and wish you only the best on a journey to getting closer to Hashem.
Let's get one thing straight. This is not your forum and Rachel is not your guest. You do not get the right over anyone else. This forum has additional rules that are stickied at the top in addition to CD's TOS. She has a right to her own opinion. She has the right to do so and not a privilege that you think you have control of.
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