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Old 08-23-2019, 06:09 AM
 
Location: US
28,197 posts, read 15,252,887 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
I suppose that our visitor to the forum also stated what he believes to be true. What he probably doesn't understand is that he was way out of line when he told TFF "you can't call yourself a Jew..." and then he spouts what sounds like a Christian repudiation of Judaism's oral tradition.

And I'm not even going to get into our visitor's statement of "The root of the words you wrote is traced to the serpent..."

People can believe what they want and question others in a respectful manner, but they have no business coming to a Judaism forum and telling Jews here that "you can't call yourself a Jew." That's not respectful. I may not always be on the same page with TFF, but he can certainly call himself a Jew and I give him credit for knowing his stuff. I can't speak for Pruz or others on this forum, but I suspect they might agree with me on this.
My reply was to TFF for thinking Pruzhany was going get on him, i donít think there was anything to get on TFF about, as for chief scum, ĎI told ya soí...I
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Old 08-23-2019, 06:38 AM
 
779 posts, read 92,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
My reply was to TFF for thinking Pruzhany was going get on him, i don’t think there was anything to get on TFF about, as for chief scum, ‘I told ya so’...I

Yep! My response was mainly for Chief Scum's benefit, in case he's still lurking around, and maybe puzzling over why I got on him.
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Old 08-23-2019, 07:44 AM
 
78 posts, read 10,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
Yep! My response was mainly for Chief Scum's benefit, in case he's still lurking around, and maybe puzzling over why I got on him.
When someone who claims to believe in God says the Torah is misleading, it deserves a strong rebuke. As that is what the serpent claimed when he tempted the woman. And what I wrote about the serpent comes right from God's judgement on the serpent in the Garden of Eden. And then in my second paragraph, I also shared how it says Moses received the Torah. Everything I wrote is within the framework of the Torah.

When I read TFF's response;" Ha ha ha I thought it would be Pruz who would get on me". I felt like I was being trolled. Which is also not cool and not funny. To say the Torah is misleading is a very dangerous stance to take as you can also see that in God's judgement on the serpent, that the serpent would crawl on his belly and eat dust all the days of his life.

I wouldn't have wrote that strong rebuke if I didn't care about TFF.

Last edited by chief scum; 08-23-2019 at 07:57 AM..
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Old 08-23-2019, 08:17 AM
 
71 posts, read 13,003 times
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My post was started on why G-d didn’t give Moses another chance, especially when he prayed about what he had done. I was thinking he might of gotten a warning. He was under a lot of stress at the time, too much happening at one time and his being human.
I know it was because he hit the rock in front of people, instead of letting them see G-d speaking through him to the people.
It made it look like he split the rock himself, and he was the one who caused the water to gush out.
Of course, he wasn’t even thinking that , it wasn’t his intention when he did it.
I was just asking why he wasn’t forgiven and if others thought the same way, as far as his deserving a severe “ sentence “
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Old 08-23-2019, 08:24 AM
 
3,997 posts, read 3,375,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chief scum View Post
When someone who claims to believe in God says the Torah is misleading, it deserves a strong rebuke. As that is what the serpent claimed when he tempted the woman. And what I wrote about the serpent comes right from God's judgement on the serpent in the Garden of Eden. And then in my second paragraph, I also shared how it says Moses received the Torah. Everything I wrote is within the framework of the Torah.

When I read TFF's response;" Ha ha ha I thought it would be Pruz who would get on me". I felt like I was being trolled. Which is also not cool and not funny. To say the Torah is misleading is a very dangerous stance to take as you can also see that in God's judgement on the serpent, that the serpent would crawl on his belly and eat dust all the days of his life.

I wouldn't have wrote that strong rebuke if I didn't care about TFF.
I suspect youíve never properly learned a single page of Talmud. And look how far from Torah your statements are. I learn Talmud every single day of my life (or I try) with amazingly talented qualified rabbonim. I donít believe anyone is accusing me of not knowing Torah on some level (thereís a lifetime of learning ahead of me still, please Hashem).

Statement remains true. The written Torah was never intended to be learned as a stand alone document. And one who learns it in that manner is far far away from it. Written Torah has no value without oral Torah explaining it further.
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Old 08-23-2019, 08:32 AM
 
3,997 posts, read 3,375,726 times
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Interesting that weíre 4 pages into this thread. And nobody has mentioned that chazal say that Hashem, and by proxy Moshe Rabbeinu, weíre doing a great chesed (kindness) to kílal Yisroel by denying Moshe entry into the land. Chazal say that had Moshe entered the land, he would have built the beis hamigdosh, and it would have been pure perfection. Later, the Jews would sin by abandoning the Torah and its mitzvos, and Hashem would be required to punish. Since the temple was perfect, that would not have been the choice of what to destroy. So it would have been the Jewish people instead. Baruch HaShem He destroyed our building and not us! Required keeping Moshe out in order that we survive.
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Old 08-23-2019, 08:42 AM
 
71 posts, read 13,003 times
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Pt 2.I thought the Oral Torah agrees with and supports the written Torah. It’s not replacing or changing anything in it. It just elaborates on subjects and statements that aren’t clear .
If they were clear and everyone understood the meaning of certain topics, it probably wouldn’t of been necessary to explain( not change )
Moses received both Torahs. He couldn’t of written everything down. He’d be up there forever.
Some things were probably assumed that people knew what it meant too , at the time, so he didn’t have to explain it in writing.
The oral tradition was handed down to Joshua, then one teacher to another.
Eventually everything probably got distorted, down through the ages, like that game in school, where the teacher whispers a phrase to the first student, then they whisper it to the next student, etc, all around the room.
By the time the last student repeats it, it’s different.
By the CE era, they wrote everything down , what everyone knew into one book.
( Not literally one, some were like volumes in a set, so it could go in detail about different topics, ie prayer times, how to do certain things, etc) Like the Mishna
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Old 08-23-2019, 08:53 AM
 
78 posts, read 10,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin mouse View Post
My post was started on why G-d didn’t give Moses another chance, especially when he prayed about what he had done. I was thinking he might of gotten a warning. He was under a lot of stress at the time, too much happening at one time and his being human.
I know it was because he hit the rock in front of people, instead of letting them see G-d speaking through him to the people.
It made it look like he split the rock himself, and he was the one who caused the water to gush out.
Of course, he wasn’t even thinking that , it wasn’t his intention when he did it.
I was just asking why he wasn’t forgiven and if others thought the same way, as far as his deserving a severe “ sentence “
Moses got to watch the Israelites enter the promised land after he had led them through the wilderness all those years. He got to see the fulfillment of God's word to Abraham, and that it wasn't a dead end road. When I look inside the Ark of the Covenant I see Aron's staff that budded, which tells me that God does not lead down a dead end road. Moses did not come to a bitter end, he got to see God's blessing of Abraham fulfilled, as the authority God placed on him then rested on Joshua. The righteous embrace that, otherwise everything would die with them.

As far as the word deserving goes, personally I don't ever want to feel deserving of anything, rather being thankful. And I am sure that Moses was most thankful to get to watch the Israelites finish the journey.

P.S. Also, when Moses didn't follow God's word in that moment, and then struck the rock twice, as the first time didn't give pause. God did not leave Moses standing there looking like a fool, as water gushed from the rock, after he struck it the second time.

Last edited by chief scum; 08-23-2019 at 09:21 AM..
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Old 08-23-2019, 09:25 AM
 
71 posts, read 13,003 times
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Yes, and he knew he fulfilled everything he was supposed to do, ever since the Burning Bush, or before.
There was a reason he was picked and he accomplished everything too; it wasn’t easy.
I just felt bad that he didn’t get to actually enter it, even for one hour.
I know he didn’t think that way; that’s me and my modern day thinking on a event that happened in a different century , where people thought differently.
You mentioned Aaron’s staff that grew almond buds. When that was the Parsha a while back, I was reading out loud and my husband heard me.
He loved the story about Korach getting sucked up in the earth( earthquake, quicksand?), then the 250 followers going up in flames, then later the snakes biting people.
He was actually listening. He then said that it would make a good movie ( He would)
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Old 08-23-2019, 09:36 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,867 posts, read 10,792,642 times
Reputation: 2561
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Interesting that we’re 4 pages into this thread. And nobody has mentioned that chazal say that Hashem, and by proxy Moshe Rabbeinu, we’re doing a great chesed (kindness) to k’lal Yisroel by denying Moshe entry into the land. Chazal say that had Moshe entered the land, he would have built the beis hamigdosh, and it would have been pure perfection. Later, the Jews would sin by abandoning the Torah and its mitzvos, and Hashem would be required to punish. Since the temple was perfect, that would not have been the choice of what to destroy. So it would have been the Jewish people instead. Baruch HaShem He destroyed our building and not us! Required keeping Moshe out in order that we survive.
I did not know that midrash, thanks.

Chazal are always rewarding to read! Even if this midrash, is, well kind of odd in some ways, it does resolve the question, and can get us thinking about the value of humanity vs the value of buildings (and rituals? or maybe thats taking the mussar too far)

Interesting questions about "perfection" and the nature of divine choice.

Also of course about who can choose to build the Beit M
hamikdash, and in what circumstances.

And Moshes ability for "perfection".


interesting question - did Hashem TELL Moshe this was why he could not enter? Given Moshe's earlier intervention on behalf of am Yisrael's life, one suspects he would have accepted this, once it was explained. (but was Moshe not capable of refraining from building the Beis HaMikdash? Or was this something Hashem could NOT share with Moshe?)

OTOH, why are we told that Moshe could not enter the land because of his sin? This midrash implies that even had Moshe never sinned, he could not have entered the land? Perhaps because the details of this (the sinning by am yisrael, or the imperfection of Shlomo's beit hamikdash) could NOT be shared with Moshe, or with the people. Raises questions on when some truths must be hidden, and when some other than literal truth is justified.
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