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I've been a resident of Kansas for 28 years.. I've lived all over Kansas.. Including Salina, Wichita, Manhattan. When you speak on the ills of Kansas, you have it completely right. Kansas has never addressed growing its economy outside of Northeast Kansas and primarily Johnson county. If anyone really thinks it is ok for a metro area to grow and prosper and just relocate businesses a few miles away so they can pay less local taxes to the region as a whole is just plain in la la land and is totally delusional
I am a college graduate from Kansas State, and have had issues galore finding stable employment in this state. I feel like the politicians in Kansas (and for that matter everywhere) are out to pad their numbers for themselves and not out to help common residents whatsoever. What is increasingly frustrating about Kansas is how the state is not addressing issues for so many residents and places.
1. Kansas has given very little help to Wichita and has repeatedly given far more clout to the KC area politically and economically. Wichita is starting to really hurt economically with major plants closing or relocating, and major employers outsourcing. Even if the economy recovers quickly and strongly (which is highly unlikely anytime soon) Wichita will not gain these jobs back. This can be blamed for on Wichita leadership too, but will hurt the state of Kansas greatly. So why is it never addressed statewide??
2. Topeka has been given a reputation as being a complete ghetto with high crime and many people are ashamed of it. It has improved a little but still has many struggles with various issues and its going to be a small miracle if Topeka can ever get rid of these issues and that stigma.
3. Outside of Lawrence (which is indirectly helped by KC) and El Dorado (helped by Wichita but who knows for how long) and Manhattan, (helped by a big military increase) Most Kansas towns are struggling and hurting badly and losing population rapidly. People my age are leaving in droves and do not want to be here. People my age are starting to wake up to the fact of how poorly this state has been run and do not want to be associated with it anymore. We have many towns in this state that have only an older population. What are these towns going to consist of in 30 years if we do not address this? Are we going to still just bribe a few Kansas City Missouri businesses to cover up the ongoing issues to make it look good?
Kansas has to learn to serve ALL its citizens. First off, Johnson County is slowly being exposed.. You cannot continue to support schools, roads, etc... if you are letting businesses come in with such high incentives your state and local area do not profit. This is economics 101.. If you need another example: Its what our country has been doing fiscally the last 30+ years and thats really working out well (notice my sarcasm)
The entire KC area needs to make a regional partnership of equal representation of all counties in the KCMO metro area and they work on working together. It may be painful and have some issues, but this beats the bickering that has gone on for years and helps the region. Keep the rivalry between sports rivals, and even citizens if they want, but please for the sake of the metro and the gain of BOTH states, work together..
With that said, if things stay as they have been, I will gladly be a Missouri resident before way long. I know Missouri has issues, I'm not claiming its perfect by any means, but I can not support a state I've lived in my whole life that continues to do this. It speaks volumes when I am someone who really loves Kansas nature, Kansas weather, has powerful Kansas connections, family, friends is really thinking about leaving this state.
Last edited by jbtornado; 11-16-2010 at 02:20 AM..
Reason: spelling
It's sad the Kansas side has to leach off Kansas City, Missouri. Regardless of how anyone tries to spin it, it's leaching. Luring businesses away from the anchor of a metropolitan area is leaching. The suburbs could very well be killing their host and it wont be good for the entire area.
Yes. It's sad that the two sides are not economic peers which would induce cooperation on its own. However, this is not the fault of only one side.
KC, MO is not the "anchor" that it once was. This is not the fault of JoCo or Kansas, no matter how many times people say it.
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I love to see Kansas lose, even if it's just one game so I can laugh at them. I will defend Missouri drivers and say that Johnson county drivers are the worst ever,
Way to be part of the solution!
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but in reality, I'd love to see every part of the metro work together and make the Kansas City Metro Area one of the best places in the country.
I suspect that what you really mean is that you would love to see Kansas City, Missouri thrive again and for its suburbs to be more bedroom and less corporate competition. You would love for JoCo to hand over money to KC to build a light rail from the airport to downtown in the name of "regional cooperation".
Yes, these things would be wonderful for KC! Unfortunately, they would mean Kansas cutting its own throat. A bit much to ask at this point.
Again, cooperation has to be mutually beneficial. What does JoCo/Kansas stand to gain at this point by slowing down so that KC can catch up? Nobody seems to want to address that.
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Originally Posted by jbtornado
Kansas has never addressed growing its economy outside of Northeast Kansas and primarily Johnson county.
This is simply not true. However it is true that the economic bases are vastly different in JoCo (corporate) vs Wichita (manufacturing) vs the rest of the state (agricultural) and some issues are much more easily addressed than others.
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I am a college graduate from Kansas State, and have had issues galore finding stable employment in this state. I feel like the politicians in Kansas (and for that matter everywhere) are out to pad their numbers for themselves and not out to help common residents whatsoever.
What would you have the politicians of Kansas (or anywhere) do to help you find a job?
And if it's okay to bring in new jobs from 500 miles away. Why is it suddenly a horrible unthinkable idea to bring them in from 10 miles away? Again, no one wants to address where the boundaries are of the "magic fairness radius."
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What is increasingly frustrating about Kansas is how the state is not addressing issues for so many residents and places.
What issues should be top priority?
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1. Kansas has given very little help to Wichita and has repeatedly given far more clout to the KC area politically and economically. Wichita is starting to really hurt economically with major plants closing or relocating, and major employers outsourcing.
What kind of help do you think Kansas should give?
The corporate economic base of JoCo is far more lucrative and sustainable than the manufacturing base of Wichita. This is just a simple fact. It makes sense to me that the KC area would have more political and economic "clout". If you think it costs big in terms of tax breaks to lure a white-collar business to JoCo, do you know what it takes to entice a big manufacturing plant to come to Tornado-alley and set up shop?
But I'd love to hear ideas about what you think Kansas could do to boost the manufacturing base of Wichita. (seriously!)
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2. Topeka has been given a reputation as being a complete ghetto with high crime and many people are ashamed of it. It has improved a little but still has many struggles with various issues and its going to be a small miracle if Topeka can ever get rid of these issues and that stigma.
I'm with you on this on. Topeka is a joke and I wish more effort would go into improving its image. Heck, I'd be happy if we could just start by cleaning the grime off the dome of the capital building! Have you seen it lately? It looks like crap!!
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3. Outside of Lawrence (which is indirectly helped by KC) and El Dorado (helped by Wichita but who knows for how long) and Manhattan, (helped by a big military increase) Most Kansas towns are struggling and hurting badly and losing population rapidly. People my age are leaving in droves and do not want to be here. People my age are starting to wake up to the fact of how poorly this state has been run and do not want to be associated with it anymore.
Outside of KC and Wichita areas, Kansas is an agricultural state. Agriculture in general is a shrinking industry requiring fewer human resources all the time. As such most small towns are shrinking and aging. I'm not sure there is much that can be done about this, so I can't see pumping resources toward it.
But I'm open to hearing what you think should be done.
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Kansas has to learn to serve ALL its citizens. First off, Johnson County is slowly being exposed.. You cannot continue to support schools, roads, etc... if you are letting businesses come in with such high incentives your state and local area do not profit.
How do you know that the state and local areas are not netting a profit? My understanding is that they have (or at least are projected to in some newer cases.)
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The entire KC area needs to make a regional partnership of equal representation of all counties in the KCMO metro area and they work on working together. It may be painful and have some issues, but this beats the bickering that has gone on for years and helps the region. Keep the rivalry between sports rivals, and even citizens if they want, but please for the sake of the metro and the gain of BOTH states, work together..
See above and please explain to me how JoCo (at this point) would be better off by intentionally slowing down growth and the refilling of office space.
[quote=Samantha S;16670770]Yes. It's sad that the two sides are not economic peers which would induce cooperation on its own. However, this is not the fault of only one side.
KC, MO is not the "anchor" that it once was. This is not the fault of JoCo or Kansas, no matter how many times people say it.
Given that you were responding to this:
Originally Posted by MabelMeister It's sad the Kansas side has to leach off Kansas City, Missouri. Regardless of how anyone tries to spin it, it's leaching. Luring businesses away from the anchor of a metropolitan area is leaching. The suburbs could very well be killing their host and it wont be good for the entire area.
I'm not sure you actually addressed the issue. Yes, it is sad they are not economic peers and that it has not induced cooperation but it is still leaching. The anchor of a metropolitan area is frequently the part of the area with the most infrastructure, and unless you are suggesting that they move the interstates or KS annexes downtown then the anchor will be in MO. Continuing that, the metropolitan area (not political, just the area) extends from there. No other metropolitan area would ever try to pay companies to move out of downtown and out to the suburbs. It sounds like you're suggesting that it is okay in this case because they are run by two different states and it is everyone for themselves which would be fine, if they weren't in the same metropolitan area. I see it as a difference between drawing boundaries around the metro, or along the state line. You've been asking for a radius for how far it is okay to poach business - well anywhere outside of the metro I guess. Where the metro is is a little fuzzier sure, and there will be some marginal cases - but if Kansas has millions of dollars to give away, why don't they give it away to someone who is moving more than a few blocks?
Kansas has to learn to serve ALL its citizens. First off, Johnson County is slowly being exposed.. You cannot continue to support schools, roads, etc... if you are letting businesses come in with such high incentives your state and local area do not profit. This is economics 101.. If you need another example: Its what our country has been doing fiscally the last 30+ years and thats really working out well (notice my sarcasm)
Get used to it. It's only going to get worse as Kansas continues with excessive corporate welfare and leaching off of kcmo as its primary means of economic growth.
Awesome quote BTW
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Yes. It's sad that the two sides are not economic peers which would induce cooperation on its own. However, this is not the fault of only one side.
KC, MO is not the "anchor" that it once was. This is not the fault of JoCo or Kansas, no matter how many times people say it.
It may not be the anchor city "it once was" it's just like every other large urban city. Economies are more dispersed across metro areas. But it's still THE anchor city and therefore is the primary cultural, tourism and entertainment center of the region. Regardless, it doesn't deserve to be constantly stabbed in back by a neighboring state and its suburbs.
You keep bring up your thought that KCMO is not doing things well enough and JoCo is. I think KCMO is doing what is can. They have spent billions to rebuild the city. There is no way KCMO, or any other city in the united states, could compete with what Kansas is throwing at them. No way! Do you not understand that? You will not find the absurd corporate welfare driven leaching off a core city from primary suburb in any other metro.
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I suspect that what you really mean is that you would love to see Kansas City, Missouri thrive again and for its suburbs to be more bedroom and less corporate competition. You would love for JoCo to hand over money to KC to build a light rail from the airport to downtown in the name of "regional cooperation".
Yes, these things would be wonderful for KC! Unfortunately, they would mean Kansas cutting its own throat. A bit much to ask at this point.
Again, cooperation has to be mutually beneficial. What does JoCo/Kansas stand to gain at this point by slowing down so that KC can catch up? Nobody seems to want to address that.
It stands to gain by no destroying the city that gives JoCo a reason to exist in the first place. No matter how well the suburbs are doing, if the city is not healthy, the entire area becomes less desirable. There is no net gain to take a tax paying business out of downtown KC and give them tens of millions of dollars in incentives to location to some office park off 435. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?
Why would you take this quote which is positive, productive and makes total sense:
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but in reality, I'd love to see every part of the metro work together and make the Kansas City Metro Area one of the best places in the country.
And spin like you did? How insulting to that poster.
I spent countless hours and effort volunteering for regional transit alliances etc. I have personally worked on transit planning and proposal projects in metro KC. Not one time did it ever come up that KCMO wanted JOCO's money to fund their light rail system. NEVER. It never crossed a single person's mind. The only people that bring that up is JOCO residents that arrogantly think KCMO wants their money. All people want is for JoCo to be a part of a "REGIONAL" transit system. All plans that JoCo would have been involved in simply would have built transit lines in JOCO to connect to other area counties. It would be silly to plan or build a regional transit system and not include the second largest county in the metro. But that is exactly what KC is now doing. Area leaders basically have said F off to JOCO and it's not even part of regional planning now when it comes to transit. They can't even get the bus systems on the same page. And it's the selfish, snobby comments like the one you made that will keep it that way.
Finally, nobody wants JoCo or KS to suffer or turn back into a bedroom suburb or any of that. The ONLY thing myself and all these other posters and the MO side in general have ever asked for is respect and cooperation. It's fine for the KS side to grow and add to the economy of metropolitan Kansas City. It's actually awesome.
Just stop doing it at the expense of Kansas City, MO. JoCo already gets a free ride in metro KC. Is it really necessary to destroy the economy of the city too? When you take everything from KCMO, then who is going to pay for the zoo, stadiums, museums etc that JoCo people love to use, but won't partake in regional funding for them. Oh, I forgot, KC will have Smithsonian museums in strip malls next to Bed Bath and Beyond on 135th Street. Yehaww!
[quote=Samantha S;16645021]Local government takes in revenue and in return provides services. How is it not a business?
It is not a business because its goals are different. The goals of government are to make life livable...to serve the greater good of the people it serves. It is not a business that can only serve those who pay the most or can afford its services. Government has to take care of all the roads, even those in the neighborhoods where residents would not be able to "pay." It is not set up to make a profit, but to generate enough income to serve the basic needs of all citizens. I am not proposing socialism...but this is the goal of our democratic government as well.
I don't care at all about AMC and I know nothing about the tax code. This is just my response to the idea that local government is a business. I see it as something very different. If the police only came if you could afford to pay them, or your street only got plowed when you had made an appointment and contracted to plow operator, things would devolve into chaos pretty quickly.
No other metropolitan area would ever try to pay companies to move out of downtown and out to the suburbs. It sounds like you're suggesting that it is okay in this case because they are run by two different states and it is everyone for themselves which would be fine, if they weren't in the same metropolitan area.
You misunderstand as many others have as well. I have never said, "it's okay". I have never said this is a good thing.
What I've said is that I understand why and how it has happened. I can see the perspective of both sides.
The state line does play a huge role. It just does and I don't honestly know how that can be remedied unless and until a viable "cooperation plan" can be conceived that benefits both sides. I don't think it's reasonable to expect Kansas to use available incentives lure companies in from Denver or St. Louis or further away but then simply turn away companies who come knocking on their door (or at the very least are low hanging fruit) from across the street.
Please help me understand: What should JoCo do at this point??? Say "No, we don't want you here. Stay in MO please."
Then stand on the corner and wave them good-bye as they move to Dallas???
If a company is losing money due to their location, they will move. It's expensive to pick up and move. A company that is considering it has weighed the costs. They are going somewhere. They will be offered incentives in Denver, or Dallas or where ever they consider. Should JoCo just wring its hands and watch them go?
Nobody wants to talk about this part of it.
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if Kansas has millions of dollars to give away, why don't they give it away to someone who is moving more than a few blocks?
They can offer a company that is moving from KCMO a better deal simply because that company doesn't have to relocate or retrain workers. So it's an easier sell and better for the metro if the company doesn't leave altogether.
The underlying assumption is that if JoCo/Kansas would "just stop leaching" that magically all those companies would realize how truly great KC is and would suddenly decide not to move!
I just don't believe this is the case. But I would be happy to be convinced otherwise.
Please find me one example of a local company that would have left the metro area all together had they not been poached by Kansas. Nearly every single one of these is a MO vs KS thing. A company will say "they are looking at sites on both sides of the state line". They don't say "both sides of the state line and Dallas".
In a lot of cases, like this one with AMC, a company will not even be interested in the Kansas side. They WANT to stay in the urban core. But then Kansas comes along and offers 20 million in incentives. (the star even said they may be offering 50 MILLION to relocate 400 employees across the border).
AMC has to take a look at Kansas now. They would be silly not to.
Don't even act like JoCo is "saving" KC by keeping all those companies in the metropolitan area. Quite the opposite.
You can quote me where ever you want. I stand by what I post.
How can you defend and justify the actions of Kansas in the metro area? I would love to hear an honest, well thought out answer to this question. Address the topic of this very thread. Why does Kansas find it necessary to throw tens of millions of dollars to lure yet another company a few miles across state line, especially when that company didn't even play the KS vs MO incentive game in the first place.
If you truly had the best interest of the metro at heart, you would see how unproductive and destructive this is to KC.
You don't sound much like a transplant anyway with many of your anti kcmo comments you have posted, of which I could also quote. Sure, you take advantage of the assets that KCMO offers. Great.
But then you look the other way on issues like this thread, where you continue to take the high road.
I don't care if you live in Lee's Summit or Lenexa. The practice of poaching companies from KC is terrible and it's something you don't see with such aggression in most metro areas that have some level of cooperation and respect within the metro.
You can have plenty of respect and passion for Overland Park, but then you should know when to say "shame on you" when that city sets out to lure a longtime company from downtown KCMO.
It's unnecessary.
My father called today and asked if I have heard what's going on in KC. He was talking about how Kansas is luring over so many KCMO companies. We didn't talk much more about, but the point is that people are taking notice in this recent up tick in aggression by Kansas and it will only make the KS vs MO thing worse creating more resentment and more friction. While other metro areas come together as one. KC digs a deeper trench along state line.
a) Post #26 to the thread, item #1. So, stop strawmanning.
b) I "take advantage" of kcmo? Wow, really that's some productive metro-wide thinking there. Here I thought I was helping to support things like the zoo, hotels, restaurants, venues....nope, I'm just a leech I guess if you ignore the thousands of dollars annually (and hundreds if not more in sales taxes I pay on those purchases.)
c) Yep, I've made some jabs about MO....generally they are meant sarcastically or to try to get the haters to realize just how ridiculous the cross-boarder comments are. I've also made fun of JOCO, the sprawl of OP, Iowa etc.
So, stop strawmanning if you can help it...I'm not so sure anymore as you've worn my patience thin with the incessent crying, trolling and lopsided attacks when some of us are actually trying to support the region as a whole and you are just pretending to. I'm not falling for it anymore.
You misunderstand as many others have as well. I have never said, "it's okay". I have never said this is a good thing.
What I've said is that I understand why and how it has happened. I can see the perspective of both sides.
The state line does play a huge role. It just does and I don't honestly know how that can be remedied unless and until a viable "cooperation plan" can be conceived that benefits both sides. I don't think it's reasonable to expect Kansas to use available incentives lure companies in from Denver or St. Louis or further away but then simply turn away companies who come knocking on their door (or at the very least are low hanging fruit) from across the street.
Please help me understand: What should JoCo do at this point??? Say "No, we don't want you here. Stay in MO please."
Then stand on the corner and wave them good-bye as they move to Dallas???
If a company is losing money due to their location, they will move. It's expensive to pick up and move. A company that is considering it has weighed the costs. They are going somewhere. They will be offered incentives in Denver, or Dallas or where ever they consider. Should JoCo just wring its hands and watch them go?
Nobody wants to talk about this part of it.
They can offer a company that is moving from KCMO a better deal simply because that company doesn't have to relocate or retrain workers. So it's an easier sell and better for the metro if the company doesn't leave altogether.
The underlying assumption is that if JoCo/Kansas would "just stop leaching" that magically all those companies would realize how truly great KC is and would suddenly decide not to move!
I just don't believe this is the case. But I would be happy to be convinced otherwise.
I'd just like to point out that in the original article - ostensibly the topic at hand, AMC expressed interest in country club plaza which is when KS offered a bundle of cash. It's not like they were going to move out of the area to Dallas or Denver, or like anyone said we should kick them to the curb. I think you're setting up a straw man argument here, or perhaps just ignoring the inconvenient parts.
What JoCo should do if a company comes knocking on their door is make them a deal, because if a company is coming to them then they can drive a good bargain. If a company is just looking at moving out of the area they should be offered incentives to stay. If someone hears that a company is thinking of a new office building in the area they should do nothing because paying them money offers very little real benefit.
Perhaps you would like to explain how offering 10x the money when they hear of a company looking at the plaza is not leaching? Or why you say it is not okay or a good thing, but that they should go after the low hanging fruit as you say? For ten million I'm sure they can find someone else interested.
Similarly, I can see why each county would offer money to companies who would like to move, either into or out of the area. What I cannot see is why someone would seek out existing area companies who are not leaving the area and offer them very significant sums over someone who either is not in the area, or is leaving the area.
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