U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Missouri > Kansas City
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-28-2011, 06:29 PM
 
Location: IN
20,224 posts, read 34,584,021 times
Reputation: 12565

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by smellykat View Post
Decided to do a little research, and discovered that J. C. Nichols (developer of the Country Club Plaza and influential Kansas Citian) was a racist. My apologies to you, Denver and KCMO. Johnson County does have a racist past as does Jackson County, Clay County, and Platte County.

Fascinating link (from a historical standpoint only) from Tulane University revealing Kansas City's dirty little secret.


ijurr24-3-gotham 616..633
This is a pretty well known fact about JC Nichols. I am quite surprised you weren't aware of it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-01-2011, 03:20 PM
 
327 posts, read 821,127 times
Reputation: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
This is a pretty well known fact about JC Nichols. I am quite surprised you weren't aware of it.
Uhhh, attended private schools in Kansas, went out of state for college and grad school?

Parents aren't KC natives?

Never worked in real estate?

Never knew anyone in JO/KC who worked in real estate?

Spent big chunks of time NOT living in KC?

My friends and I don't discuss J. C. Nichols?

You tell me, GS, I'm clueless as to why I haven't been enlightened to this fact until now.

I will confess to a certain amount of naivete on the subject of race. My only experience with racism in Johnson County was the loss of a sale on my Overland Park home when my neighbor stepped outside to pick up his paper. The prospective buyer took one look at the color of the skin of this quiet and dignified, Harvard educated gentleman and backed out of the negotiations. Thank God!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-01-2011, 04:35 PM
 
327 posts, read 821,127 times
Reputation: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by PVPete View Post
To be fair, pretty much all of KCMO south of 39th and west of 71 was developed because of racism too.
Well, "fair and accurate" are not strong points in many posts on this forum. Thanks for this information, Pete.

I would suggest interested posters read Race, Real Estate and Uneven Development: The Kansas City Experience 1900-2000 to get a broader perspective on racism and its effects on the development of the metropolitan Kansas City area. The book was penned by Kevin Fox Gotham, a professor at Tulane University, who writes extensively on this topic (racism) in addition to urban studies. I have not read the book, but I have perused some of the material online. I would like to put this on my reading list.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-01-2011, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,709 posts, read 18,563,561 times
Reputation: 5427
Quote:
Originally Posted by smellykat View Post
Well, "fair and accurate" are not strong points in many posts on this forum. Thanks for this information, Pete.

I would suggest interested posters read Race, Real Estate and Uneven Development: The Kansas City Experience 1900-2000 to get a broader perspective on racism and its effects on the development of the metropolitan Kansas City area. The book was penned by Kevin Fox Gotham, a professor at Tulane University, who writes extensively on this topic (racism) in addition to urban studies. I have not read the book, but I have perused some of the material online. I would like to put this on my reading list.
I pointed out that KCMO had similar issues long before JoCo even existed as a suburb.

That's not the point. The point is that much of JoCo's "success" can be attributed to its long history of keeping out the blacks and staying "white" for so long (deep into the 90ís) while being so close to the urban core's assets and jobs (which it started poaching not long after first developing).

It simply can't be denied. The same can be said about Liberty, Lee's Summit etc, but on much smaller scale and with far less implications to KCMO (they were much further away, same state etc). From being shielded from KCMO school deseg issues (due to being in different state), to simply not allowing blacks to live there (in the 70ís and 80ís, not the 1920ís), JoCo has benefited tremendously from maintaining a mostly white, higher demographic population.

BTW, I read the that book and just about every other book about KC's history and how it developed.

Fair and accurate? PleaseÖ the only people that are considered fair and accurate on this forum are those that ignore the facts or justify any and everything that Johnson County does. Johnson County is nothing short of having your biggest enemy and competitor in your own back yard and I find it actually quite amazing that KCMO actually does as well as it does with such a fiercely competitive and un-cooperate neighbor. And you can tell me that if it were not for JoCo residents, there would not be enough Royals fans or visitors to the Zoo, which is complete BS because if JoCo didn't exist, metro KC would still have the same 2 million people it does today, they would just be living in another part of the metro. I think KC would be more like 2.5 - 3 million today if JoCo hadn't stole so much of KC's thunder over the past three decades. JoCo boomed at KCMO's expense and that only brought down the metro as a whole even if things looked great on 119th or 135th Street.

Metro KC was just listed as one of the cites that lost the most jobs in the entire country this past summer. Maybe metro KC would be in better shape if it worked like a metro instead of it being a little kcmo vs joco economic war and 99% of that war is pre-emptive attacks via the KS side. KC has two large urbanized counties and one will do everything in their power to actually destroy the other at their own short term expense. How is KC ever going to compete with Denver or Minneapolis when it's like that?

But everybody in KC finds reasons to back up joco and blame kcmo. Iím just one of the few that believes itís mostly the other way around.

Last edited by kcmo; 10-01-2011 at 08:47 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-01-2011, 10:12 PM
 
400 posts, read 845,370 times
Reputation: 390
All I hear is JoCo this, JoCo that, but the white/black segregation starts in KCMO before it gets to JoCo. Specifically, Troost Avenue in KCMO.

Take the corner of Gregory and Troost, an area of which I am familiar from when I lived in KC. Go to the New York Times "Mapping the 2010 U.S. Census" site to check the racial data on Census tracts on either side of Troost at Gregory. Many of you already know this, but in case you don't or if you need a refresher:

Census tract 86, which is the northwest corner of Gregory and Troost, from Gregory to 63rd, Troost to Wornall, is 88% white, 6% black. Census tract 87, which is literally on the other side of Troost Avenue, from Troost to Prospect, Gregory to 63rd, is 8% white, 86% black.

If you go further west along Gregory, Census tract 85 between Wornall and State Line Road is 94% white, 2% black. Census tract 84, which is just north of that, between 63rd and 55th, Wornall to State Line, is 93% white, 1% black.

Most of the Census tracts in that area, between Troost and State Line, are as white as anywhere in Johnson County. And this is all within the city of KCMO. This is a 100% KCMO city issue.

Another thing that I wanted to point out since "kcmo" keeps saying how "unusual" it is that a county like Johnson County, being adjacent to two counties with larger non-white populations, would have a low non-white population itself, you're ignoring another such county right in your metro area: Clay County, MO. Clay County shares a border with both Jackson and Wyandotte, just like Johnson County does. In Clay County's case, the border is a river rather than land, which impedes development to some extent (although there are numerous bridges and historically there have been many transportation links between Clay and Jackson/Wyandotte). But the point remains that Clay County shares a border with both Wyandotte and Jackson. And Clay County is actually closer to the urban parts of Wyandotte and Jackson than Johnson County is, so if there were no segregation issues in Clay, then Clay should have seen migration of urban blacks from Wyandotte and Jackson.

But Clay County is only 5% black. Johnson County is 4% black. Not much difference. So Johnson County is not as unusual in this respect as you think it is. Actually, Johnson County is more non-white overall than Clay County since Johnson County is 82% white and Clay County is 84% white.

If you don't like that argument, but you still want an example of a non-KC area county to disprove the theory that Johnson County is uniquely segregated, look no further than Waukesha County, Wisconsin. This is the largest suburban county in Milwaukee, directly west of Milwaukee. Waukesha County is 91% white, 1% black (much smaller black population than Johnson County, KS which is 4% black). Milwaukee County, which borders Waukesha on the east, is 26% black, which is a higher black percentage than Jackson County, MO. Milwaukee city itself is considered to be the most segregated city in the country.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2011, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,709 posts, read 18,563,561 times
Reputation: 5427
Troost is a racial dividing line in kcmo? Thanks captain obvious! Once again, I know KCMO's race history quite well.

Clay County? Really? You are comparing Johnson to Clay? Clay was never really continuous with urban kcmo and you know it, not that it didn't have similar racial issues, but come on.

And I'm glad you found a county similar to JoCo, but it's still very different because Waukesha County is not in a different state than Milwaukee city which makes a huge difference in how JoCo has been able to take advantage of KCMO while hiding behind the state line on issues such as school deseg and regional funding. To make Waukesha County really the same thing as Johnson County, you would have to take lake Michigan (part near Milwaukee) and drain it, replace it with dirt, call it the 51st state and develop it into the second largest county in the Milwaukee area. It would be directly across from the best parts of urban Milwaukee in a different state. That will be similar to what JoCo has going on. Waukesha is much more like eastern Jackson County or maybe st charles county, mo than Johnson County KS, it's about the same distance from urban Milwaukee and about the same population and demographics too. It's in the same state, so it can't steal jobs using incentives and I'm sure they are always part of the equation when people start talking about desegregating city schools, and regional funding for area attractions which JoCo s not. (I'm pretty sure you know this, you seem intelligent).

Why won't you just admit it that race has played a huge role in why JoCo has done so well? JoCo has only boomed because it lucked out on geography. That's it. Now they have learned to take full advantage of the situation, but the county is nothing but a leach on kcmo without having to deal with kcmo or other metropolitan problems (yet). That is nothing personal, but it's true and anybody with an ounce of urban planning knowledge knows it.

Last edited by kcmo; 10-02-2011 at 12:08 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2011, 02:42 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
7,688 posts, read 5,667,567 times
Reputation: 7560
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
Troost is a racial dividing line in kcmo? Thanks captain obvious! Once again, I know KCMO's race history quite well.

Clay County? Really? You are comparing Johnson to Clay? Clay was never really continuous with urban kcmo and you know it, not that it didn't have similar racial issues, but come on.

And I'm glad you found a county similar to JoCo, but it's still very different because Waukesha County is not in a different state than Milwaukee city which makes a huge difference in how JoCo has been able to take advantage of KCMO while hiding behind the state line on issues such as school deseg and regional funding. To make Waukesha County really the same thing as Johnson County, you would have to take lake Michigan (part near Milwaukee) and drain it, replace it with dirt, call it the 51st state and develop it into the second largest county in the Milwaukee area. It would be directly across from the best parts of urban Milwaukee in a different state. That will be similar to what JoCo has going on. Waukesha is much more like eastern Jackson County or maybe st charles county, mo than Johnson County KS, it's about the same distance from urban Milwaukee and about the same population and demographics too. It's in the same state, so it can't steal jobs using incentives and I'm sure they are always part of the equation when people start talking about desegregating city schools, and regional funding for area attractions which JoCo s not. (I'm pretty sure you know this, you seem intelligent).

Why won't you just admit it that race has played a huge role in why JoCo has done so well? JoCo has only boomed because it lucked out on geography. That's it. Now they have learned to take full advantage of the situation, but the county is nothing but a leach on kcmo without having to deal with kcmo or other metropolitan problems (yet). That is nothing personal, but it's true and anybody with an ounce of urban planning knowledge knows it.


So you want him to admit that whites "do well" and non-whites don't? That's it? It's that simple?

No racism there....

The entertainment continues.......
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2011, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
3,572 posts, read 6,219,722 times
Reputation: 2550
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
Troost is a racial dividing line in kcmo? Thanks captain obvious! Once again, I know KCMO's race history quite well.

Clay County? Really? You are comparing Johnson to Clay? Clay was never really continuous with urban kcmo and you know it, not that it didn't have similar racial issues, but come on.

And I'm glad you found a county similar to JoCo, but it's still very different because Waukesha County is not in a different state than Milwaukee city which makes a huge difference in how JoCo has been able to take advantage of KCMO while hiding behind the state line on issues such as school deseg and regional funding. To make Waukesha County really the same thing as Johnson County, you would have to take lake Michigan (part near Milwaukee) and drain it, replace it with dirt, call it the 51st state and develop it into the second largest county in the Milwaukee area. It would be directly across from the best parts of urban Milwaukee in a different state. That will be similar to what JoCo has going on. Waukesha is much more like eastern Jackson County or maybe st charles county, mo than Johnson County KS, it's about the same distance from urban Milwaukee and about the same population and demographics too. It's in the same state, so it can't steal jobs using incentives and I'm sure they are always part of the equation when people start talking about desegregating city schools, and regional funding for area attractions which JoCo s not. (I'm pretty sure you know this, you seem intelligent).

Why won't you just admit it that race has played a huge role in why JoCo has done so well? JoCo has only boomed because it lucked out on geography. That's it. Now they have learned to take full advantage of the situation, but the county is nothing but a leach on kcmo without having to deal with kcmo or other metropolitan problems (yet). That is nothing personal, but it's true and anybody with an ounce of urban planning knowledge knows it.
Clay County is the "core" of the northland. Actually, for being across a large river and on the otherside of a large industrial river bottom, Clay County is quite continuous with KCMO south of the river. If you look at the development as stages in the northern part of KCMO's northeast side, it's quite clear that it laid the roots for the continued development north of the river as the stages/era of development continue where it left off at Gladstone BLVD in the lower northland. This is pretty much synonymous with development southwestward into Kansas. Athough, that part of the northland is becoming fairly runned down.

Anyway, I don't think anybody could deny Clay County and the northland's growth began for the very same reasons and in the same time frame as JoCo. But I do think somebody could be intellectually dishonest and biased.

Also, JC Nichols, as you know, is very much responsible for helping growth southwestward into JoCo. I applaud him, as he was apparently able to "see through" the state line and developed across it seamlessly as if it weren't there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2011, 11:52 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,709 posts, read 18,563,561 times
Reputation: 5427
Did you know that JC Nichols wanted to develop the Country Club Plaza in KCK before choosing the area south of the city?

Had JC Nichols done that, I think the KC area would truly be a twin cities area, with KCK actually having a respectable urban core to compliment KCMO, much like St Paul is to Minneapolis.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2013, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Florida and New England
1,101 posts, read 1,310,505 times
Reputation: 1359
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
The point is that much of JoCo's "success" can be attributed to its long history of keeping out the blacks and staying "white" for so long (deep into the 90ís) while being so close to the urban core's assets and jobs (which it started poaching not long after first developing).

It simply can't be denied. The same can be said about Liberty, Lee's Summit etc, but on much smaller scale and with far less implications to KCMO (they were much further away, same state etc). From being shielded from KCMO school deseg issues (due to being in different state), to simply not allowing blacks to live there (in the 70ís and 80ís, not the 1920ís), JoCo has benefited tremendously from maintaining a mostly white, higher demographic population.
A couple of quibbles: Johnson County's residential racial covenants, just like those in KCMO proper, were un-enforceable and un-enforced by 1960. (They were ruled unconstitutional in 1949 IIRC, but the local courts didn't apply the ruling for another decade). This is observable if you look how neighborhoods and high schools "turned" over time. Central High in the 1950s, Westport and Paseo in the 1960s, Southwest in the 1970s.

JoCo did not overtly or explicitly disallow "blacks to live there" in the 1970s and 1980s. There was certainly residual private discrimination, but it was not public policy. In fact at least two JoCo public figures stated that they wanted a more integrated county -- contemporanous statements that I heard first-hand in the 1970s and 1980s.

Second quibble to a different post upthread, I knew the Krohs -- they were not overtly racist in the ways ascribed to J.C.Nichols. Both of the younger Kroh brothers were refined people, despite their later financial shenanigans, and at that time (and I believe still today) the notion of refinement precluded overt racism, which was perceived as a poor white man's condition. I doubt Nichols would have talked about race openly also, but I never met him. It's well proved that both firms included racially restrictive covenants as they developed Sunset Hill, Country Club, Mission Hills and beyond.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Missouri > Kansas City
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top