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Old 11-08-2011, 02:03 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
7,704 posts, read 5,676,430 times
Reputation: 7571

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
Yet I don't understand why you don't see how the inherent inefficiencies of the sprawled out environment will not work well in the long-term. Maybe people will demand higher density areas that have all the infrastructure and city services in place instead of constantly demanding new services and amenities from taxpayers who prefer an outlying rural town that they live in to stay smaller instead of growing into a large mess. Then, when population increases these once "smaller towns or cities" have to entice even more businesses to move in to compensate for the low tax base in the first place. The cycle continues.
We see the world very differently, GS. Among my life priorities, collective efficiency is so low on the list that it will never get a moment's consideration.

I have the same question for you in reverse. Why are you so concerned about it? Yeah, yeah....we're "killing the planet", and all that rot. And they'll continue to feed you that garbage as long as there are plenty of human sponges willing to soak it up. It is ideological dogma and utter nonsense.

High life quality is all about freedom....individual freedom. That's what this country is all about - or (sadly) used to be. We have been asleep as a nation on the job of protecting our individual freedom for so long now that there is at least a generation of young people whose minds have been hard wired into the "collective" powers that be who are herding us like cattle into the very future that you advocate strongly and consistently. That future is a nightmare that no freedom lover wants any part of. High density living with very limited individual mobility is a feedlot....at best.
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Old 11-08-2011, 10:01 PM
 
Location: IN
20,238 posts, read 34,612,622 times
Reputation: 12585
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
We see the world very differently, GS. Among my life priorities, collective efficiency is so low on the list that it will never get a moment's consideration.

I have the same question for you in reverse. Why are you so concerned about it? Yeah, yeah....we're "killing the planet", and all that rot. And they'll continue to feed you that garbage as long as there are plenty of human sponges willing to soak it up. It is ideological dogma and utter nonsense.

High life quality is all about freedom....individual freedom. That's what this country is all about - or (sadly) used to be. We have been asleep as a nation on the job of protecting our individual freedom for so long now that there is at least a generation of young people whose minds have been hard wired into the "collective" powers that be who are herding us like cattle into the very future that you advocate strongly and consistently. That future is a nightmare that no freedom lover wants any part of. High density living with very limited individual mobility is a feedlot....at best.
I am not advocating one model over another, but it is easy to see the fallacies and strong points of both. The fact that you are trying to pigeonhole my opinions on this issue as inherently political in nature is a strawman. The fact is that we have already hit peak oil or will hit it soon. Market forces or limitations to sprawly development that characterized most of the 20th century is slowing down markedly in many areas. Given the fact that gasoline is now 100% more expensive than it was 5 years ago and the fact that oil is a commoditized entity that can be traded daily- this is not surprising. Freedom is what each individual thinks the world may be or should be depending on their own ideological perspective gained through world experiences.

New Hampshire | Mercatus

NH ranks number one for freedom.
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Old 11-09-2011, 10:34 AM
 
2,195 posts, read 2,161,464 times
Reputation: 1916
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
We see the world very differently, GS. Among my life priorities, collective efficiency is so low on the list that it will never get a moment's consideration.

I have the same question for you in reverse. Why are you so concerned about it? Yeah, yeah....we're "killing the planet", and all that rot. And they'll continue to feed you that garbage as long as there are plenty of human sponges willing to soak it up. It is ideological dogma and utter nonsense.

High life quality is all about freedom....individual freedom. That's what this country is all about - or (sadly) used to be. We have been asleep as a nation on the job of protecting our individual freedom for so long now that there is at least a generation of young people whose minds have been hard wired into the "collective" powers that be who are herding us like cattle into the very future that you advocate strongly and consistently. That future is a nightmare that no freedom lover wants any part of. High density living with very limited individual mobility is a feedlot....at best.
Your "individual mobility" and "individual freedom" are in point of fact provided to you by the "collective" powers you so fear.

Humans are a naturally collective species, like pack animals or herds. Collective living has allowed the species to thrive and survive, otherwise our natural biological predators would have overwhelmed us and our competitors for environmental resources would have overpowered us.

Modcut-personal attacks.

Last edited by GraniteStater; 11-09-2011 at 02:40 PM..
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado U.S.A.
14,174 posts, read 22,570,668 times
Reputation: 10428
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
We see the world very differently, GS. Among my life priorities, collective efficiency is so low on the list that it will never get a moment's consideration.

I have the same question for you in reverse. Why are you so concerned about it? Yeah, yeah....we're "killing the planet", and all that rot. And they'll continue to feed you that garbage as long as there are plenty of human sponges willing to soak it up. It is ideological dogma and utter nonsense.

High life quality is all about freedom....individual freedom. That's what this country is all about - or (sadly) used to be. We have been asleep as a nation on the job of protecting our individual freedom for so long now that there is at least a generation of young people whose minds have been hard wired into the "collective" powers that be who are herding us like cattle into the very future that you advocate strongly and consistently. That future is a nightmare that no freedom lover wants any part of. High density living with very limited individual mobility is a feedlot....at best.
I personally find freedom in a rather high density neighborhood and city. I find public transport to be freedom. Freedom from the stress of driving, cost of gas and insurance. We can't all live on a ten acre farm. Nor would I ever care to. I want to walk to restaurants and businesses and interact with my neighbors. But no one is taking away your freedom to live somewhere with low density.
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:33 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
7,704 posts, read 5,676,430 times
Reputation: 7571
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverian View Post
I personally find freedom in a rather high density neighborhood and city. I find public transport to be freedom. Freedom from the stress of driving, cost of gas and insurance. We can't all live on a ten acre farm. Nor would I ever care to. I want to walk to restaurants and businesses and interact with my neighbors. But no one is taking away your freedom to live somewhere with low density.
The freedom to live in low density areas was made possible by the automobile. And the automobile, the most wonderful and important invention in the last 200 years, has been under attack now for many years by various fringe ideological groups who will stop at nothing to eliminate what they're convinced is a scourge upon the planet.

So, no, they haven't yet succeeded in taking away the freedom enabled by individual mobility, but they're sure as hell trying....and trying harder every day.

I will fight them with all of my energy until I draw my last breath. We are finished as a nation if we continue our retreat from what made us great 50 years ago. And the automobile played no small part.
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado U.S.A.
14,174 posts, read 22,570,668 times
Reputation: 10428
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
The freedom to live in low density areas was made possible by the automobile. And the automobile, the most wonderful and important invention in the last 200 years, has been under attack now for many years by various fringe ideological groups who will stop at nothing to eliminate what they're convinced is a scourge upon the planet.

So, no, they haven't yet succeeded in taking away the freedom enabled by individual mobility, but they're sure as hell trying....and trying harder every day.

I will fight them with all of my energy until I draw my last breath. We are finished as a nation if we continue our retreat from what made us great 50 years ago. And the automobile played no small part.
"They" aren't coming for your car lol! I think a lot of "they" are trying to keep cars around when there is no more oil, or when the average person will no longer be able to afford gas, by looking into new technologies.

Cars and airplanes are pretty amazing inventions. Even more amazing is that when you look at the timeline of humans on this planet, it's a very short time that we've had such transportation available. We're lucky to live in the timeline where we can experience it. I certainly don't demonize cars, but I would prefer to not need to use mine on a daily basis. And I appreciate the technology that allows me to average 47 mpg. in the city!
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Tower Grove East, St. Louis, MO
12,064 posts, read 27,278,948 times
Reputation: 3739
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
The freedom to live in low density areas was made possible by the automobile. And the automobile, the most wonderful and important invention in the last 200 years, has been under attack now for many years by various fringe ideological groups who will stop at nothing to eliminate what they're convinced is a scourge upon the planet.

So, no, they haven't yet succeeded in taking away the freedom enabled by individual mobility, but they're sure as hell trying....and trying harder every day.

I will fight them with all of my energy until I draw my last breath. We are finished as a nation if we continue our retreat from what made us great 50 years ago. And the automobile played no small part.
This makes you sound straight nuts.

And I don't think the automobile is even close to the most important invention in the last 200 years.
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Tower Grove East, St. Louis, MO
12,064 posts, read 27,278,948 times
Reputation: 3739
^Though I do like my car, regardless!
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Old 11-09-2011, 07:56 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
7,704 posts, read 5,676,430 times
Reputation: 7571
Quote:
Originally Posted by aragx6 View Post
This makes you sound straight nuts.

And I don't think the automobile is even close to the most important invention in the last 200 years.
Ya know, you may be onto something there. The ignore button is right up there, too.
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Old 11-09-2011, 08:28 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
7,704 posts, read 5,676,430 times
Reputation: 7571
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverian View Post
"They" aren't coming for your car lol! I think a lot of "they" are trying to keep cars around when there is no more oil, or when the average person will no longer be able to afford gas, by looking into new technologies.

Cars and airplanes are pretty amazing inventions. Even more amazing is that when you look at the timeline of humans on this planet, it's a very short time that we've had such transportation available. We're lucky to live in the timeline where we can experience it. I certainly don't demonize cars, but I would prefer to not need to use mine on a daily basis. And I appreciate the technology that allows me to average 47 mpg. in the city!
Don't kid yourself.

You better believe they're after my car....and your car....and everybody else's car. What do you think this fire-breathing incessant push for "transit" is all about? And the charade over the last 15-20 years predicting certain global catastrophe within our lifetime from CO2 emissions? And the constant drumbeat of attacks on all things "suburbia"?

And peak oil? Neither you nor I nor almost anyone else on earth has any idea how much oil remains. We only know the propaganda we're fed for the purpose of price manipulation. But there's no logical reason to believe we are anywhere near a supply crisis.

You may appreciate your 47 mpg putt-putt car. But that's only because you're too young to have experienced driving the greatest American cars....of the 50s and 60s. What has happened since is sad, sad, sad, as with each passing year and more stifling regulations, cars have become a little less exciting and a little more demonized.

Last edited by CrownVic95; 11-09-2011 at 08:38 PM..
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