U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Missouri > Kansas City
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-05-2011, 10:10 AM
 
Location: KC Area
345 posts, read 692,072 times
Reputation: 216

Advertisements

We can agree that KC has poor airport and almost no public transportation, except for buses that carry a whimpy 35-40,000 a day.

Kansas City could have a great airport and could be a great hub for Frontier, but no. It is outdated, small, and just gives a bad reputation for KC.

Kansas City also lacks light rail/commuter rail/streetcars. Light rail would work wonderfully, because KC's urban core is perfectly lined up. Commuter rail and "park and rides" would work great along I-35 into Johnson County and along 70 to Independence. I'm sure that would probably get at least 40,000 a day alone.

I know both have plans for new things, but seriously, these two things have a huge impact in defining a city. Why can't Kansas City just do it. Which one is the bigger problem?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-05-2011, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,498,983 times
Reputation: 5415
I would say both. But KC doesn’t needs a massive regional transit system and it doesn’t need a new airport.

All KC really needs is a central city transit system to connect the river market to the Plaza and a new terminal building.

KCI:
KCI airport is a great airport outside the terminals. It has three runways (that are WAY under capacity), lots of parking, a brand new rental car facility and is generally a nice airport. The terminals at KCI blow big time and while most locals just don’t get how bad the current system is, I think KC has really missed an opportunity to have a major airport that is user friendly to both locals and travelers. I was a frequent flyer at KCI for ten years I didn’t even like it as a local user, now I absolutely hate the place and dread the thought of being delayed there. I’m not alone. While people in KC are worried about losing their short walks, (which is really stupid because most other airports in midsized cities are just as quick to get through as KCI), they should be worried that KCI has become a commuter airport for hub cities and how that effects the city’s ability to land new companies, conventions etc. The thing that really boggles my mind is that building a new terminal building would not cost kc taxpayers much if anything directly. Most would be federal money (that would otherwise just go to some other city) or revenue generated by the new terminal (because the existing terminals generate so little).

Transit:
For the love of god, why can’t KC connect downtown to the plaza with something decent? That should be the NUMBER ONE priority for KC. Not trains going to Kearney or Pleasant Hill. It doesn’t have to be light rail, but something fixed that would really pull urban kcmo together. It would help spur investment in midtown (actually I think it would make midtown completely take off), help land conventions, I can go on and on with how much impact such an investment would have on kcmo’s urban core. But once again, the city is doing multiple things half azz rather doing doing one thing and doing it right. 2 miles of streetcar is great, but why not go to the plaza now. Otherwise it will be 15-20 years before it ever does go to the plaza.

Commuter rail is a total and complete waste of money in KC with its wide open highways and almost zero congestion or delays. Why give people another reason to live in Grain Valley or Pleasant Hill??? Even if built, the system would be WAY slower than driving and is just not cost effective at all especially when some of KC’s interstates are in dire needs of replacement. 70 in Jackson County is one of the oldest stretches of urban interstate in the country that has not be rebuilt (it gets constant bandaids).

A rail line 20 miles through sparsely populated KCK to the speedway is stupid. A line to Liberty makes no sense at all and few would use it, just like very few ride buses from the northland, the line to Grandview is completely retarded because it winds and zigzags through the blue valley industrial district and would be extremely slow and pass by nothing all the way downtown. The only lines that make sense are along I-35, straight down 35 through densely populated Johnson County (would would require additional rail along side the freightracks) or along the existing rock island right of way to Lee’s Summit with a spur to union station via the east side (not going via east bottoms to riverfront). The line to Blue Springs would be the third and final viable options for commuter rail. I also like how the proposed commuter rail will run all day long and could be used for things other than just commuting. But honestly, I won’t believe that till I see it. I think when commuter rail comes to KC, it will be strictly commuter rail with a few morning and a few evening trains. If they can seriously make it into something more, I would be more supportive of these lines only, but not the others. But people work in downtown, midtown, plaza etc and when they get to union station, they need that central spine to be in place and it needs to be fast and go as far as the plaza or you will never get enough peopel to ride trains in from the suburbs.

So my opinion is that KC needs a new airport terminal, it needs to install a fixed guideway transit spine in the core (river to plaza) and it needs to implement a modern high speed user friendly bus system outside the core of the city taking advantage of the freeways possibly combined with a couple of efficient commuter/local rail lines like to Lee’s Summit, Olathe and Blue Springs, so long as they are not only rush hour trains.

So all of the above….with exceptions?

Last edited by kcmo; 11-05-2011 at 12:27 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-05-2011, 05:22 PM
 
3,008 posts, read 4,165,740 times
Reputation: 1524
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
I would say both. But KC doesnít needs a massive regional transit system and it doesnít need a new airport.

All KC really needs is a central city transit system to connect the river market to the Plaza and a new terminal building.

KCI:
KCI airport is a great airport outside the terminals. It has three runways (that are WAY under capacity), lots of parking, a brand new rental car facility and is generally a nice airport. The terminals at KCI blow big time and while most locals just donít get how bad the current system is, I think KC has really missed an opportunity to have a major airport that is user friendly to both locals and travelers. I was a frequent flyer at KCI for ten years I didnít even like it as a local user, now I absolutely hate the place and dread the thought of being delayed there. Iím not alone. While people in KC are worried about losing their short walks, (which is really stupid because most other airports in midsized cities are just as quick to get through as KCI), they should be worried that KCI has become a commuter airport for hub cities and how that effects the cityís ability to land new companies, conventions etc. The thing that really boggles my mind is that building a new terminal building would not cost kc taxpayers much if anything directly. Most would be federal money (that would otherwise just go to some other city) or revenue generated by the new terminal (because the existing terminals generate so little).

Transit:
For the love of god, why canít KC connect downtown to the plaza with something decent? That should be the NUMBER ONE priority for KC. Not trains going to Kearney or Pleasant Hill. It doesnít have to be light rail, but something fixed that would really pull urban kcmo together. It would help spur investment in midtown (actually I think it would make midtown completely take off), help land conventions, I can go on and on with how much impact such an investment would have on kcmoís urban core. But once again, the city is doing multiple things half azz rather doing doing one thing and doing it right. 2 miles of streetcar is great, but why not go to the plaza now. Otherwise it will be 15-20 years before it ever does go to the plaza.

Commuter rail is a total and complete waste of money in KC with its wide open highways and almost zero congestion or delays. Why give people another reason to live in Grain Valley or Pleasant Hill??? Even if built, the system would be WAY slower than driving and is just not cost effective at all especially when some of KCís interstates are in dire needs of replacement. 70 in Jackson County is one of the oldest stretches of urban interstate in the country that has not be rebuilt (it gets constant bandaids).

A rail line 20 miles through sparsely populated KCK to the speedway is stupid. A line to Liberty makes no sense at all and few would use it, just like very few ride buses from the northland, the line to Grandview is completely retarded because it winds and zigzags through the blue valley industrial district and would be extremely slow and pass by nothing all the way downtown. The only lines that make sense are along I-35, straight down 35 through densely populated Johnson County (would would require additional rail along side the freightracks) or along the existing rock island right of way to Leeís Summit with a spur to union station via the east side (not going via east bottoms to riverfront). The line to Blue Springs would be the third and final viable options for commuter rail. I also like how the proposed commuter rail will run all day long and could be used for things other than just commuting. But honestly, I wonít believe that till I see it. I think when commuter rail comes to KC, it will be strictly commuter rail with a few morning and a few evening trains. If they can seriously make it into something more, I would be more supportive of these lines only, but not the others. But people work in downtown, midtown, plaza etc and when they get to union station, they need that central spine to be in place and it needs to be fast and go as far as the plaza or you will never get enough peopel to ride trains in from the suburbs.

So my opinion is that KC needs a new airport terminal, it needs to install a fixed guideway transit spine in the core (river to plaza) and it needs to implement a modern high speed user friendly bus system outside the core of the city taking advantage of the freeways possibly combined with a couple of efficient commuter/local rail lines like to Leeís Summit, Olathe and Blue Springs, so long as they are not only rush hour trains.

So all of the aboveÖ.with exceptions?
Well Republic is in a wee bit of trouble at the moment so don't hold your breath on that one KC. When most people say they need a new airport, they are in fact referring to the terminal. Indianapolis International isn't a new airport, it's a new terminal squarely situated between the two runways (with 3rd in masterplan) to make the taxi fees airlines have to pay minimal esp. compared to where the old terminal used to be. You can leave the terminal and be ready for takeoff in under 5 minutes now barring takeoffs/landings in the queue. My last sting a couple of weeks ago, we landed and was pulled into the terminal in 4 minutes takes like 15 in Atlanta and then you have to wait for 18 million other planes to take off and land .
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-05-2011, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,498,983 times
Reputation: 5415
Quote:
Originally Posted by msamhunter View Post
Well Republic is in a wee bit of trouble at the moment so don't hold your breath on that one KC. When most people say they need a new airport, they are in fact referring to the terminal. Indianapolis International isn't a new airport, it's a new terminal squarely situated between the two runways (with 3rd in masterplan) to make the taxi fees airlines have to pay minimal esp. compared to where the old terminal used to be. You can leave the terminal and be ready for takeoff in under 5 minutes now barring takeoffs/landings in the queue. My last sting a couple of weeks ago, we landed and was pulled into the terminal in 4 minutes takes like 15 in Atlanta and then you have to wait for 18 million other planes to take off and land .
ATL sucks. Now that place is a lost cause and the queues in ATL are just crazy, it's always dozens of planes lined up.

I'm not sure I have ever had to wait for more than one plane in KC before getting clearance to take off. Most of the time, you just go straight from the gate to take off mode, although depending on the runway they use, taxi times at KCI can be pretty long just because the place is so spread out. But I'll take that over sitting in airplane rush hour traffic.

ATL is not a great airport and most of the terminals suck too, but I would still rather be delayed there than at KCI.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-06-2011, 06:25 AM
 
Location: KC Area
345 posts, read 692,072 times
Reputation: 216
kcmo, I think you are right about commuter rail. I really think we should do what the Twin Cities are doing. let's take advantage of the several lanes on 35 and make one of them be a Carpool/Bus/Motorcycle lane and have bus lines running all the way to 135th street or 151st Street and have Park and Rides (park your car in big garage, take the bus) every 3 or even 4 miles along 35. Park and Rides like at Shawnee Mission Pkway, 95th Street, 119th, and 151st, or whatever order (those seem like the busy ones).

The Twin Cities have a great bus system all throughout the metro, we need to learn from them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-06-2011, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,498,983 times
Reputation: 5415
Yea, a comprehensive commuter bus system using modern commuter coach buses, well lit and secure park and ride facilities with direct access to freeways (like denver has so buses don't have to get on and off exits) and some sort of dedicated lane use in congested areas (such as shoulders) would be perfect for KC.

It would take half the time a train would take, it could be a one seat ride, because buses could distribute commuters throughout the core rather than just dumping everybody off and forcing them to take another form of transit to their final destination (although a transit spine is still needed) and the infrastructure of the system would be flexible enough to use for special events, sporting events etc.

All at a fraction of the cost of commuter rail or light rail.

Like I said though, if they do commuter rail right and build the lines so they act like light rail and serve more of the city (not just far flung commuters) and more than just rush hours, then I would be okay with them. MAX has to be the cheapest version of "BRT" in the country and they talked it up like it was going to be state of the art BRT. MAX is a pretty typical city bus line, nothing more. So I'm not buying that KC will not do much more than throw some diesel trains on some freight tracks and use them to move a few hundred commuters a day, (most of which probably already use current commuter buses and would be annoyed by the longer commute times on trains).

But again the only corridors where any form of rail makes any sense is 70 and 35. Well, Johnson County is out. They want nothing to do with "regional" transit and want to be on their own, but in a perfect world, fixed rail in KC would only work from Olathe to Blue Springs via 35 and 70 with major transit hub at union station. The Lee's Summit line might work becasue of the existing right of way, but that's about it. Traffic patterns from LS are much more dispersed and probably leans more to JoCo than downtown KC and suburb to suburb transit will never work in KC, it barely works or exists in very large cities.

Okay, I'm rambling.

Bottom line, if KC can can pull off a jackson county commuter rail line, then fine, but the rest of the metro still needs something and buses would work just fine, but the central urban corridor of KC should be a higher priority than commuter stuff in KC.

BTW, this is a commuter bus:


This is not a commuter bus:

Last edited by kcmo; 11-06-2011 at 11:16 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-06-2011, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,498,983 times
Reputation: 5415
I'm know I'm getting confusing to some people, but I also wanted to say that KC also needs "real" BRT along with commuter lines.

BRT would work great along many corridors of KC including as an alternative to commuter buses and commuter rail.

BRT to the speedway makes total sense for example. ANY form of rail to the speedway does not make an ounce of sense.

KC also needs either BRT or Commuter bus service to KCI. Again, rail makes zero sense to KCI. It would be a colossal waste of money, but it's silly that KC doesn't have an air traveler friendly bus (with luggage racks) running from the downtown/plaza corridor to KCI (without layovers downtown or on Barry Rd!) every hour. This could be a metro wide service to KCI if KC were to build a comprehensive metro wide system. Again, Denver has something similar that could be emulated. http://www.rtd-denver.com/skyRide_SubHome.shtml

I know KC has some BRT "light" lines (Main, Troost) and some more in the works, (Metcalf, State Ave), but things there should be taken up a notch.

BRT could be used along the rock island rail right of way along side a bike path like what LA has.





One more thing.

Bring back service to the ballparks. KC has to be the only city (arlington doesn't count) that doesn't offer any public bus transit to its stadiums. It's litteraly embarissing to tell people that you can't get to a Royals game via transit. Other cities have non downtown parks and they have transit options and there are ways around the federal laws (kc's excuse as to why they stopped it).

Milwaukee has a stadium that is in an area almost identical to KC's sports complex in a metro of about the same size and look!
Transportation - Public Transportation | brewers.com: ballpark
Quote:
Milwaukee County Transit System (MCTS) provides bus service to and from Miller Park on game days from downtown and surrounding communities
There is no excuse for not having any transit at all to Kauffman stadium.

Last edited by kcmo; 11-06-2011 at 11:45 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-06-2011, 11:41 AM
 
29,988 posts, read 35,855,551 times
Reputation: 12719
Kansas City buses run more than 2/3rds empty most of the time and all the airport terminals are not full either. The demand isn't there. Chicago didn't build O'Hare before Midway was overburdend why should KC? Built yet another airport that wont get near capacity use? Pay for more buses that won't get ridden?

I have to believe that if the demand were there for bus transportation to Kauffman Stadium the way it is for Arrowhead (and thus profit) that bus lines and the Royals would make it a priority on game days.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-06-2011, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Middle America
35,817 posts, read 39,361,269 times
Reputation: 48613
I don't see either as a huge issue. I personally fly infrequently and have no significant airport complaints, and while more transit would be lovely, it's obvious that there isn't the support or demand for it, so it's unsurprising that a more significant system than the one already in place hasn't been fleshed out.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-06-2011, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,498,983 times
Reputation: 5415
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal View Post
Kansas City buses run more than 2/3rds empty most of the time and all the airport terminals are not full either. The demand isn't there. Chicago didn't build O'Hare before Midway was overburdend why should KC? Built yet another airport that wont get near capacity use? Pay for more buses that won't get ridden?

I have to believe that if the demand were there for bus transportation to Kauffman Stadium the way it is for Arrowhead (and thus profit) that bus lines and the Royals would make it a priority on game days.
KCI has way to many gates for the volume of traffic. The new terminal will have 50 something gates, the existing one has over 90. It's not about the number of gates, but how the gates are set up. A new terminal would probably be nearly fully leased, but it would be able to be expanded when needed. With the way KCI is now, you won't ever have to worry about it being fully leased because people avoid KC for connections and airlines are not fond of that.

I used to ride the Blue Springs commuter bus every day and most days I had to stand (often with 10-15 others). Demand is there if the service makes sense to use.

The Chiefs no longer have buses either and they were popular with both the Royals and Chiefs. I think the reason is that somebody got paid somewhere. The royals and chiefs get all parking revenue and they don't want buses going there if they have anything to do with it, but with that being county property, the county should look past that and provide the service anyway. But the county has nothing to do with transit as of now, so they can't. It's all just one more reason the kc metro needs regionally controlled transit.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Missouri > Kansas City
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top