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Old 11-28-2011, 10:27 AM
 
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Yeah, many people in our Minneapolis and Milwaukee offices talk about when hunting/fishing season starts. I hear that from a few people at work who live on the outskirts of the metro but (yes, anecdotal) it appears more prevalent up there.

On the W Coast woman who said MO side is 'redneck city' ... I would agree that MO has more than W Coast but whenever the implied 'all' or 'most' is used, is hard to take the post seriously. Some NY'ers who live in Chicago call Chicago a cow town. My sister who has lived her entire adult life in LA brings up how redneck STL is whenever she visits home. Funny thing is, she's the only one in family who can handle country music.

There's a strange assumption too that KC area has a major cowboy culture. It never really did. Cows and horses yes, but not cowboy culture. Even the stockyards of the past were blue collar workers in blue collar digs working in meat packing plants, not ranchers in cowboy outfits. Jazz/blues comes out of KC's past, not country music.

KC does have the American Royal event, which represents the agriculture in the region but the rodeo aspect of it is one of the lowest attended in the US. The Chicago and Boston rodeo nationals have significant attendance.

Last edited by xenokc; 11-28-2011 at 11:30 AM..
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:28 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
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@blueearth

I know the history of Village West. Probably much more so than you do. I actually worked on most of the projects out there before ground was ever broken. I too am repeating myself, but you apparently can't seem to comprehend so I will recap.

The original speedway and village west development is fine. I have always fully supported that from day one. That is such a perfect location for a speedway and putting it near KCI or near Gardner would have actually slowed growth in those fast growing areas and KCMO was not going to develop the area around a track with incentives like KCK was proposing. That would only harm the Barry Road corridor. Gardner might have used star bonds, but the highway infrastructure was not there and it's already a fast growing area that doesn't need incentives, especially incentives to fund retail down the interstate from a failing mall. KCK has a ton of underused highway infrastructure and open land that needed some spark.

None of it appeals to me, but I thought it was great that KCK was able to get creative and land the speedway and bring retail and jobs to an underserved area. Of the three proposed sited, the KCK site was by far the best location. I think the original project was a perfect example of how star bonds should be used. Sure it's sprawl and greenfield, but it's still injecting economic development into an economically depressed area. Now I will dream and wish that the Legends could have gone to downtown KCK and in a more urban development (like the national harbor here) and I actually think it could have worked because the legends is a drive to regional destination, but whatever, I get that it was part of the innitial speedway development, KCK had bought the land etc and it probably would not have happened if it had to happen downtown.

The water park is also fine. Like the speedway, it's a perfect location for a water park.

But that's where my support ends. The stadiums, the other phases of village west, the plaza at the speedway (walmart, best buy etc), the casino, the cerner office complex etc. I simply can not support because I truly believe that all of that could have and should have occurred elsewhere in wyandotte county or metropolitan area. I think KCK would have been so much better off. But they took the easy way out and just continue to put all their eggs in the speedway area basket.

Why could the city not use revenue from star bonded NFM and Legends to build the baseball and soccer stadium downtown along the river front? Why could KCK not push hard to get Cerner to go to downtown KCK? I'm sure that didn't even come up. If Cerner is willing to take on the Bannister Mall area and its image and demographics, then downtown KCK could have happened.

The plaza at the speedway should not be a tiff out there. If walmart and best buy want a tif, then they should have built at I-70 and Turner Diagonal closer to the populated portion of KCK to help stabilize that area and build it up. Or even star bond it to develop indian springs. If KCMO can put up a highly successful replacement for blue ridge mall where they did, then KCK could have put the plaza at the speedway at any number of infill or redevelopment locations. Instead KCK has a ton of open land and blight (including the old vacant walmart now) with a tiffed shopping center clear out on the fringe of town.

The casino at the speedway is a complete joke now. I mean there were like six really neat true destination style casinos proposed for western wyco and none materialized and now KCK is having to settle for the stupid Hollywood casino because they were in bed with ISC (speedway people), but a downtown casino with a large hotel complex could have happened. KCK wanted it out by the speedway.

5000 Cerner employees and a couple of million sq feet of class A office space, more hotels, a casino, baseball and soccer stadiums etc would have turned downtwon KCK into another great urban node of activity in metro KC and would have complimented downtown KCMO, Crown Center, the Plaza etc, made regional transit make more sense etc etc.

I'm sorry, but what KCK has done doesn't impress me as much as it does others I guess. What is so difficult about building something like that on a greenfield with so many aggressive incentives? Any city can do that, but they don't do it for a reason, although Overland Park has now used star bonds (which I still find mind boggling that nobody seems to care) and Mission is using them for infill, but generally at the expense of some other nearby city (such as Roeland Park by luring away their walmart or KCMO by constantly trying to fill star bonded office space with kcmo based companies).

How in the world can you support this type of stuff?

BTW, I know metro KC like the back of my hand. I lived there for more than your two years and still follow development in the city to the finest detail. KCK is hickish or at least VERY blue collar and when I mentioned cops, I said it only shows that image to the rest of the country. While cops can show that image of any city, I think KCK is more true to that image than most.

But KCK could have flipped into something dramatically different over the past ten years and slapping a heavily subsidized retail district suburb on the side of it is not what I'm talking about. KCK could have had the speedway area and a lot more across the rest of the city. Instead, it just has the speedway and a bunch of other stuff that may as well have a bonner springs address while the rest of the city is just one giant underwhelming missed opportunity that is probabaly struggling more now with the speedway area in place than if the speedway had never came. The EPA move to Lenexa which will vacate the only modern office buidling in KCK is a prime example of that.

Last edited by kcmo; 11-29-2011 at 10:40 AM..
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Old 11-29-2011, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,758 posts, read 9,486,551 times
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[quote=kcmo;21876486]
KC is all about college sports and bass pro shops for the most part.[ /quote]

I dont think I have ever read a more ridiculous statement by anyone, ever. If you think this is true then you know absolutely nothing about Kansas City. I bet if you took the amount of people that consider themselves college sports fans and the amount of people that shop at Bass Pro Shop and add them together, the percentage of those people compared to the KC MSA population would be very low.

Following college sports and fishing & hunting are hobbies and interest. They are just a couple among hundreds of hobbies and interest people have and for some reason you pull them out of your hat because you have something against them. I notice you arent pinpointing photography and photography is huge in Kansas City. But, we all know that since you are into photography that you arent going to do that.

You think whatever it is you think is the right thing. That no one else's opinion matters or has any validation at all. Blue Earth has nailed you so many times contradicting yourself and being overwhelmingly bias.

[quote=kcmo;21876486] I think having two bass pro shops and a cabella’s is pretty significant for the size of KC. You may not think so!
[ /quote]

Where are these stores located? Let's see, in Independence just a few miles from Grain Valley, Oak Grove, and then Central Missouri which is very rural and white collar.

Then, the other two stores are located deep into Kansas where people that live in rural Kansas can drive too.

Those stores are just as much about attracting people that are within a two hour drive as they are about KC people, maybe more. My wife is from Emporia, KS and a ton of my in-law's friends who hunt and fish will drive up to KC just to go to Bass Pro or Cabela's.

Those stores are more representative of the area of the country rather than Kansas City itself. Our city just happens to be surrounded by hundreds of miles of rural landscape. You make claims that KC needs to do things to attract tourism and these three stores actually help do that. They attract people from all over the region for day trips and those people purchase meals, buy gas, and other things while they are here.
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
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Um, most people in KC live in the suburbs. Not most, but the vast majority. There are hundreds of thousands of suburban residents within just a few miles of the bass pro shop locations. I know they are regional draws and I never said there was anything wrong with any of it.

My point was that KC supports two large bass pro shops and a cabella's BECAUSE OF ITS RURAL LOCATION AND PULL FROM THE RURAL AREA AROUND IT! And many of those people that live in the suburbs (or even the city) are from the rural areas around KC.

Why does KC have three massive hunting stores and no IKEA? Because that's the demographics of the area. Does that mean that those that live in 909 walnut hunt and fish and hang out at village west in KU gear on the weekends? No. But a ton of people in KC do and even if 10% of a metro are heavily into one specific thing such as hunting, that could be a lot of people out of 1.8 million people living in suburban areas even while the urban core is a completely different culture.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
Um, most people in KC live in the suburbs. Not most, but the vast majority. There are hundreds of thousands of suburban residents within just a few miles of the bass pro shop locations. I know they are regional draws and I never said there was anything wrong with any of it.
I never said there wasnt hundreds of thousands of people surrounding the hunting stores. However, when you take into consideration that they are located on the far edges of the city near rural areas, I think it is a fair assessment that they are placed there not because KC itself can support them but because they can draw from the rural areas that surround the city.

On top of that, Cabela's and Bass Pro sell a lot more than hunting and fishing stuff. They sell gear for camping, guns, boating, cabining, and other outdoor activities. I've spent money at those stores and not a single dime of it was for hunting or fishing stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
My point was that KC supports two large bass pro shops and a cabella's BECAUSE OF ITS RURAL LOCATION AND PULL FROM THE RURAL AREA AROUND IT! And many of those people that live in the suburbs (or even the city) are from the rural areas around KC.
Three stores in a city of over 2 million people and the surrounding rural area isnt that many.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
Why does KC have three massive hunting stores and no IKEA?
We dont have an IKEA for a number of reasons. There are only 38 IKEA stores in the entire country and with the exception of a few, they are mainly on the coast and big cities. For an international company to enter a new market, it will cost them tens of millions of dollars and in this economy, taking that kind of risk just isnt wise.

I fully expect an IKEA to open in KC once the economy starts to improve. IKEA is very careful when it comes to expansion and doesnt just jump into new markets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
Does that mean that those that live in 909 walnut hunt and fish and hang out at village west in KU gear on the weekends? No. But a ton of people in KC do and even if 10% of a metro are heavily into one specific thing such as hunting, that could be a lot of people out of 1.8 million people living in suburban areas even while the urban core is a completely different culture.
But, you said that KC is just about college sports and Bass Pro Shops? What is it that the people in the urban core do since that is the only thing we do here in KC?
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
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This is getting stupid, but what the hell...

Do you honestly think that even over half the people that are at a KC area bass pro shop are not from the KC area? Come on. While I'm sure they draw in quite a few from Odessa and Ottawa, you do realize that there are stores in Columbia, Springfield etc. The KC stores are primarily serving KC metro. Cabella's might draw from Topeka I guess, but anything in KC draws people from Topeka.

And I like the stores. The one in Independence is actually a really neat store to just visit. I have bought outdoors gear there myself. The aquarium in Cabella's is pretty neat too.

My point has always been that it's indicative of KC's blue collar culture. While KC is a white collar town employment wise, I personally find the city to be pretty blue collar culturally. That doesn't mean that everybody in KC is some sort of redneck.

But think about it. Nearly all of Wyandotte County, much of blue springs, lee's summit, independence, liberty, (most of clay county actually), much of far south and far east KCMO, northern Platte County, Raytown, Grandview, All of Cass County, western Johnson County, Olathe, far southern JoCo (stanley etc), Leav County, etc takes on a blue collar feel. Even in upscale areas you will find F250 pick up trucks in driveways of 300k homes. What is left? The urban corridor from NE JoCo/Brookside/Midtown through downtown kcmo? Even NKC just north of Downtown is blue collar. A large portion of the KC metro area has a very blue collar feel to it and I was only using the hunting stores as an example to back this up. There was actually a story in some business paper about KC having the three large stores. I think only Atlanta has three as well from what I remember in the article. That was several years ago, so that may have changed by now.

I find KC to be pretty blue collar. Even if working in a white collar environment, I notice a blue collar element that seems to be due to KC's location in the isolated midwest.

This is obviously my opinion and if you think KC is not like this fine.

I'm sorry I said KC is "all about" or mostly about or whatever I said. What I meant is that there is a heavy rural/ag/blue collar influence in metro KC (despite it having a very cosmopolitan urban core). I would think this would be obvious to most people given KC's rural mid america location and industrial/cowtown/agricultural heritage. But I guess not.

Last edited by kcmo; 11-29-2011 at 01:20 PM..
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
3,572 posts, read 6,197,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
This is getting stupid, but what the hell...

Do you honestly think that even over half the people that are at a KC area bass pro shop are not from the KC area? Come on. While I'm sure they draw in quite a few from Odessa and Ottawa, you do realize that there are stores in Columbia, Springfield etc. The KC stores are primarily serving KC metro. Cabella's might draw from Topeka I guess, but anything in KC draws people from Topeka.

And I like the stores. The one in Independence is actually a really neat store to just visit. I have bought outdoors gear there myself. The aquarium in Cabella's is pretty neat too.

My point has always been that it's indicative of KC's blue collar culture. While KC is a white collar town employment wise, I personally find the city to be pretty blue collar culturally. That doesn't mean that everybody in KC is some sort of redneck.

But think about it. Nearly all of Wyandotte County, much of blue springs, lee's summit, independence, liberty, (most of clay county actually), much of far south and far east KCMO, northern Platte County, Raytown, Grandview, All of Cass County, western Johnson County, Olathe, far southern JoCo (stanley etc), Leav County, etc takes on a blue collar feel. Even in upscale areas you will find F250 pick up trucks in driveways of 300k homes. What is left? The urban corridor from NE JoCo/Brookside/Midtown through downtown kcmo? Even NKC just north of Downtown is blue collar. A large portion of the KC metro area has a very blue collar feel to it and I was only using the hunting stores as an example to back this up. There was actually a story in some business paper about KC having the three large stores. I think only Atlanta has three as well from what I remember in the article. That was several years ago, so that may have changed by now.

I find KC to be pretty blue collar. Even if working in a white collar environment, I notice a blue collar element that seems to be due to KC's location in the isolated midwest.

This is obviously my opinion and if you think KC is not like this fine.

I'm sorry I said KC is "all about" or mostly about or whatever I said. What I meant is that there is a heavy rural/ag/blue collar influence in metro KC (despite it having a very cosmopolitan urban core). I would think this would be obvious to most people given KC's rural mid america location and industrial/cowtown/agricultural heritage. But I guess not.
Maybe what you're seeing is a Southern influence in Kansas City. In the South it's common for white-collar workers to be into hobbies that are stereotypically considered redneck or blue-collar.

Since I am unfamiliar, my question is do you see as much of this blue-collar/redneck/Southern/non-urban/non-cosmopolitan culture in other midwestern cities? Does KC have more of it?
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOKAN View Post
Maybe what you're seeing is a Southern influence in Kansas City. In the South it's common for white-collar workers to be into hobbies that are stereotypically considered redneck or blue-collar.

Since I am unfamiliar, my question is do you see as much of this blue-collar/redneck/Southern/non-urban/non-cosmopolitan culture in other midwestern cities? Does KC have more of it?
Depends on the city, but I would say KC is not that far from average for midwestern / southern cities, but I would say KCMO's urban core is above average (more artsy/cosmopolitan) compared to most midwestern / southern cities.

St Louis for example is probably technically more blue collar than KC, but I find the metro to be less blue collar culturally. IMO, the metropolitan population is more "big city" even though KC has a better arts scene.

Denver is very outdoors and it wouldn't' surprise me if they had six bass pro shops. But they would need to sell more athletic stuff (mountain bikes, ski gear etc) than hunting rifles and camouflage. So Denver is outdoorsy, but not blue collar.

Nashville would be more blue collar than KC, so would OKC, Fort Worth (not Dallas), Birmingham etc. Memphis seems similar to KC. Cincy, Cleveland are more blue collar in an industrial way than a country/ag way. Omaha would be similar to KC.

There are a few of my opinions.

KC has huge parts of the metro that are ultra blue collar. KCK, Independence, Clay County etc, yet at the same time it has a very sophisticated / artsy / cosmopolitan side that many cities its size can't compete with.

But overall I think it leans blue collar just do to the size of the blue collar population.
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Tower Grove East, St. Louis, MO
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I haven't been to a restaurant yet in KC, no matter how trendy or expensive, where at least one person wasn't wearing jeans. Anecdotally, that has to play into kcmo's blue collar/white collar argument. I'm a jeans girl myself, so that's no diss (though I wouldn't wear them to Plaza III or Michael Smith as some obviously do), but even the white collar folks here seem to have more laid-back, blue-collar tendencies.
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
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White collar and blue collar are terms used to describe one's profession. It has nothing to do with what they do in their free time, what they drive, what they wear, or culture in general. It is a classification on the type of work that a person does.

A person could work at the Ford plant and be into cooking, making fine wine, and the ballet.

A CEO of a company in JoCo making several hundred thousand could be into hunting and fishing.
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