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Old 09-21-2012, 04:16 PM
 
149 posts, read 224,492 times
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MOKAN I have lived in KCK all my life, 47 , and I am well aware of what it is like so dont tell me to do my research.

Indian Springs has been a blight by the hiway for years so thats why I a asking if anything has been done to it.
I moved out of state several months ago which is why I am asking. by the way how is a transit center going to help Indan springs. it needs to be torn down.

I agree with KCMO on all that you said

go kck
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
3,572 posts, read 6,195,578 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moving46 View Post
MOKAN I have lived in KCK all my life, 47 , and I am well aware of what it is like so dont tell me to do my research.

Indian Springs has been a blight by the hiway for years so thats why I a asking if anything has been done to it.
I moved out of state several months ago which is why I am asking. by the way how is a transit center going to help Indan springs. it needs to be torn down.

I agree with KCMO on all that you said

go kck
It's been said that Indian Springs is to be torn down to at least have a clear site for new development for several years now and that's been repeated in the past couple weeks. The KCKSD and PD both had offices there and now that they'll both be relocated, the mall might just get torn down. (KCKSD built a new HQ near Schlagle HS and ATS, but that's been open a while.) There's been talk of a Walmart on the site of Indian Springs, and I hope that becomes reality. Something akin to Blue Ridge Mall's replacement would be great. Sorry if I was snappy, but it seemed as though you were snottily dismissing the east end of town without realizing the progress that's taken and is taking place there. Most don't realize what's going in in inner KCK, because most are mostly unfamilar with that area.

What part of KCK did you live?
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
3,572 posts, read 6,195,578 times
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Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
Wow mokan, glass is well over half full there. I understand you have a lot of pride for KCK and that's awesome. But sometimes you have to step back and be hard on a place once in a while.

I was EXTREMELY hard on kcmo in the 1990's. I was just ripping into the city like there was no tomorrow. Getting editorials posted in the KC Star (including many guest columns), letters to the mayors, involvement in community grass roots organizations etc. And the whole time I didn't let up. KCMO was just getting hammered by nearly every other city in the country at the time and whatever KCMO was doing at the time just was not good enough. I constantly wanted to move to a city that was doing more than building suburban office parks and wasn't shy about it.

I could have pointed to the Jazz District and the Zoo expansion, which I supported, and said, look, KCMO is doing fine, there are things going on.

But I didn't. While I supported those projects and others, KCMO was so far behind and had such a long list of things it needed to do just to get where most cities were in 1985. KCMO needed lots of people to get mad and get the city seriously going again.

Now KCMO has really come a long way and while there is much work that still needs to be done and KC is still a bit behind in many aspects, it has seriously closed the gap.

Now KCK is in the same boat. Sure, the little hotel and five guys at KU is nice, but really, big deal. That's a major university research center and hospital. It's actually nearly mind boggling that the area isn't thriving with all kinds of stuff like that without any help from KCK.

KCK is a city of 150,000. It has a thriving industrial tax base and decent demographics. It's not East StL or Camden with 40k residents and a bombed out city full of crack heads. It should be able to do a LOT more than what its done and it has proven that it can. How many hundreds of millions now have been spent on the rural areas of the city near or west of 435? A few new homes in strawberry hill isn't cutting it. Transit centers at Indian Springs? What the hell is the point? There is nothing there. They are building a new apartment complex that is nearly in the city limits of Bonner Springs. Come on that would be like KCMO getting excited about an apartment complex near platte city.

I have always liked KCK because the potential there is enormous. Despite the overall poor demographics there, that city could be one hell of an urban companion to KCMO today had the city simply put just a little more effort into the actual city and less effort in building a brand new suburb with some of the most absurd tax incentives ever used in any greenfield development you will see anywhere in the country. It's obvious that this is what KCK will continue to do though. With all the tax breaks etc going to all developers out west, I wouldn't be surprised if KCK is actually worse off now then they were ten years ago because they lost the EPA which was not being star bonded or tiffed.

Why is the face of KCK village west anyway. Zona Rosa is not really what people think of when they think of KCMO. Zona Rosa is basically a suburb. Village West may as well be in the bonner springs city limits, it would make no difference.

The city could do so much more. The entire drive across KCK (via 70, state ave, etc) from kcmo to the speedway is depressing. Just knowing that the city could be a different place today is irritating and knowing that the cerner complex was originally slated for a redevelopment project makes is even more so. Had Cerner done something in the actual city of kck (not its is rural hinterlands) than I would have zero problems with them walking away from Bannister.

KCMO had plenty of excuses as to why they dropped the ball so many times in the 80's, 90's etc. I've heard them all so KCK's excuses do little for me. Time to step it up. If you can build what they did west of 435 in ten years, you can't tell me that they couldn't have done more with the existing parts of the city too.

Would KCMO be praised for building zona rosa with star bonds (zona rosa is not subsidized) if KCMO's downtown still looked like it did in 1990? Not a chance. But for some reason KCK gets a pass and is even often looked at as doing better than KCMO by many area residents which is absolutely crazy. People rip on kcmo for using tax money to rebuild ten blocks of downtown, but say nothing about the far more amount of tax money used to build big box stores on farmland halfway to Lawrence in kck while they prepare to mothball the only large office building they have in downtown.
Dude, I know your story. I wasn't saying KCK is perfect and it will continue to improve, but the progress that has/is being made is nothing to sneeze at. It's a working-class community and we're not going to vaporize the working class, so it is what it is, but it's improving in its own capacity, for the people who live and have there feet on the ground there. I've explained to you before, but VW and west KCK is KCK through and through. Everything out west has been great for the entire community. What you're trying to say is like saying West Ridge in Topeka or the Shoppes at North Village in St. Joseph aren't part of those communities. You don't seem to understand how KCK operates and I don't think you've ever had any sincere interest in KCK of any depth, so I don't expect you to understand. KCK will improve more. Give it time. KCMO is the primary city and it has so many areas to gentrify and isn't doing so at any rapid pace, so I don't know why you would expect KCK to do so. KC is growing slowly. We don't have a huge influx of folks to gentrify and turn areas around. We have slow progress. Although I must say downtown KCMO has come together very nicely in several short years and continues to do so. That's a great start.
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Old 09-21-2012, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,488,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOKAN View Post
Dude, I know your story. I wasn't saying KCK is perfect and it will continue to improve, but the progress that has/is being made is nothing to sneeze at. It's a working-class community and we're not going to vaporize the working class, so it is what it is, but it's improving in its own capacity, for the people who live and have there feet on the ground there. I've explained to you before, but VW and west KCK is KCK through and through. Everything out west has been great for the entire community. What you're trying to say is like saying West Ridge in Topeka or the Shoppes at North Village in St. Joseph aren't part of those communities. You don't seem to understand how KCK operates and I don't think you've ever had any sincere interest in KCK of any depth, so I don't expect you to understand. KCK will improve more. Give it time. KCMO is the primary city and it has so many areas to gentrify and isn't doing so at any rapid pace, so I don't know why you would expect KCK to do so. KC is growing slowly. We don't have a huge influx of folks to gentrify and turn areas around. We have slow progress. Although I must say downtown KCMO has come together very nicely in several short years and continues to do so. That's a great start.
My point was that I think most people in metro KC look at Village West and think wow, KCK is doing great and doing everything right. I guess I don't see it like that. All along I was hoping that what the city was doing by the speedway would be a way to spark interest in the rest of the city, create opportunities to use revenue generated by that area to redevelop other areas of the city etc and it really does look like the city is mostly interested in creating a self contained suburb and getting by with the status quo for the rest of the city. I still don't see why Cerner couldn't build on Indian Springs if they were going to get like 200 million in incentives to build the buildings and the soccer stadium.

Maybe my hopes are just too high, but I do set the bar high.

You don't understand how depressing metro KC is when you don't live there. It's just so spread out and there is so much under utilized land and just pure blight, for miles and miles as you drive around the metro. It just bothers me that village west is so popular while there is so much decay between village west and really all way into eastern Independence, southern KCMO. If you drove from village west to Grandview via 70 and 435 (not going around through JoCo), that's like 30-40 miles of blight yet KC is building subsidized office parks in places like far western Lenexa and far western KCK. It's just insane. KCK needs to give the EPA a reason to stay in the city or reasons for people to want to invest in strawberry hill. It would be neat if KCMO and KCK had a streetcar between the downtowns along the Lewis and Clark viaduct, but hy even think about doing that because when you get off the streetcar in KCK, you will need to take a long bus ride out to village west for any sort of vibrancy. Too many eggs in one basket.

You can't be okay with things the way they are or they for sure will never change. Waiting for the next company to cross the state line and move into the next tax payer funded office building in some affluent outerbelt office park while 60% of the metro is in some form of decay is not really going to get it done KC. That's all I'm saying and I think it may be one reason metro KC is rather stagnant compared to similar younger metros west and south of the rust belt.

But you have heard all of this before. I know. Nothing personal, I think all of your posts are pretty dead on and well thought out. I just think you have to be aggressive sometimes and point out more of what can be done while trying to applaud what is being done. It's a fine line sometimes.

Last edited by kcmo; 09-21-2012 at 06:24 PM..
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Old 09-22-2012, 08:46 AM
 
149 posts, read 224,492 times
Reputation: 127
they have been saying for years that indian springs would be torn down and its still there.
It would best if it would be and I agree they need something like walmart.

I lived near kckcc then got married and moved a few blocks from Indian springs.
no longer in kansas.
spent alot of time around the inner city around minnesota and state.
is the downtown casino still there. never went in.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:33 PM
 
12 posts, read 30,295 times
Reputation: 44
About KCK and developing Village West vs. downtown, read up on the history of the STAR bond program and you'll see why that happened. The Kansas legislature created the STAR bond program in 1998 specifically so that KCK could issue bonds to finance construction of the Kansas Speedway. It's obvious why they did this, because having a NASCAR speedway is a big draw for a small state like Kansas. Now STAR bonds are used in other cities in the state, but it was originally intended solely for the Speedway. The Speedway needed a big undeveloped area of land, as well as convenient highway access, and probably the most important thing of all, it needed to be located in an area where financiers wanted to build (because if it wasn't located in an area where financiers wanted to build, then they would not have purchased the bonds providing money for construction of the project).

Understand how STAR bonds work: the city of KCK sold bonds to private financiers, the financiers purchased the bonds because they thought that it was a good investment (i.e. they approved of the project, its location, and potential for growth), the city used the money from the bond sales to finance construction of the Speedway, and bondholders were paid interest on their bonds from sales tax revenue generated by people who spend money in the STAR bond district. At some point in the future the bonds will expire, the financiers will receive their principal, and any additional sales tax revenue after that point will go to the city of KCK rather than to pay bondholders. That additional sales tax revenue can then be used to redevelop the inner city. In the meantime, the development generates jobs for people who live in the inner city, which is less than a 10 mile commute away.

The Cerner office project/Sporting KC stadium was not part of the original Speedway STAR bond district. The original STAR bond district was enlarged in order to attract those new developments. What I'm trying to get across is that 1) the STAR bonding started with the Speedway, which by its nature had to be located in a rural area, so all additional development which wanted to use the STAR bond incentives had to be located in that district, not in a separate part of the city, and 2) that the majority of the money for these projects is/was being provided by private financiers in the form of bond purchases. There is some money being given to these projects directly from the state or city. For example, as part of their Village West deal, Cerner got about $48 million in cash directly from the state of Kansas. But most of the money for these projects is coming from private financiers who purchase STAR bonds. Those financiers are being paid interest from sales tax receipts, so they are only going to invest in something that has the potential to generate large amounts of sales tax receipts.

STAR bond Indian Springs or Minnesota Avenue and see if there is anyone willing to invest millions of dollars of their own money into bonds, knowing that they will only be paid interest on those bonds if the development generates large amounts of sales tax receipts. A retail, entertainment, or office complex at Indian Springs or downtown KCK is a lot more likely to fail than a retail, entertainment, or office complex in a safer, cleaner, newer area clustered around a regional destination like a NASCAR track. The real question is not "why doesn't KCK do this" (meaning redevelop the inner city). The real question is why don't financiers provide money for high-end retail, entertainment, and office districts in the inner city. The answer, most likely, is that it's not perceived as being a good investment.
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Old 09-22-2012, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,488,746 times
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I know what star bonds are and I know the history of their use in KCK and elsewhere in KS. Once they built the speedway via the legends (which I supported), they should and could have used star bonds to fund projects in the central part of the city or they could have done something totally independent of the speedway area or used a different financing mechanism.

Star bonds are essentially the same thing as supertiff in MO (only the developer is fronted more cash). If KCMO can use supertif to build the P&L District, then KCK could have done at least one major project in some area other than the fields that surround the speedway.

Star bonds are just supertiffs upfront.

Why not tiff some of the retail out there to build the cerner complex and or soccer stadium at indian springs or downtown kck or kaw point. If you did star bonds rather than supertiff and needed to sell the bonds to generate the upfront cash, then why would it make a difference to investors if the end project was downtown or at village west when the only thing that matters is Nebraska Furniture Mart, The Legends, Cabella's etc will continue to generate sales tax. Where the city decided to spend that redirected state sales tax is up to the city and the state.

KCK could have gotten more creative. They are taking the easy route. Anybody can do what KCK did with the speedway area and use state sales taxes to fund construction of a new development in a suburban setting, but there is a reason few do it. MO didn't even want to use supertiff to redevelop Bannister Mall. Few states will even think about reimbursing sales tax to developers for any reason, let alone for suburban shopping malls.

It takes a lot more planning and effort to do what I'm saying could have been done, but it would have done far more for KCK than just slapping a bunch of retail on the fringe of the city.

Now there is no way to generate revenue to do anything with the existing part of KCK.

Cerner could have gone to downtown KCK and the soccer stadium could have gone there or some other location. I'm just not buying this idea that the only places these incentives will work is west of 435. I've seen urban redevelopment projects all around the country. KCK could have done at some of what they did at the speedway in other areas of the city.
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Old 09-22-2012, 09:21 PM
 
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I too would like to see downtown Kansas City, Kansas become a livable, thriving city once again. I hope that there are developers who want to invest in that part of the city. The Google Fiber project showed that there are companies who are willing to invest in urban KCK.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Hays, Kansas
705 posts, read 822,598 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moving46 View Post
good to hear that the west end is doing good but what does the east end look like
Is indian spriings still sitting there?
Yep It Metro North and Metcalf South Refuse to die any faster, oh wait they already did
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Old 09-27-2012, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
3,572 posts, read 6,195,578 times
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Originally Posted by empires228 View Post
Yep It Metro North and Metcalf South Refuse to die any faster, oh wait they already did
Metro North and Metcalf South still have a heartbeat. Indian Springs is dead and has been for some time.
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