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Old 02-06-2016, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Overland Park, Kansas
758 posts, read 1,022,155 times
Reputation: 739

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOKAN View Post
^It would be interesting to see the apartment complexes proactively renovate and raise rents and market themselves to a new demographic and focus on Cerner employees. Are you saying that is happening? Unfortunately I agree that Grandview will be (or continue to be) the "target", but also Raytown and Independence, and even Lee's Summit, Blue Springs, and inner Clay County. I don't see Independence holding out as a strong hold much longer and think we're going to see a lot of KCMO's riff raff pushed there as KCMO improves, just like what apparently happened in Denver with Aurora.
That's true! I've seen news stories and heard from locals that for awhile (any maybe today) that Denver was rounding up homeless from downtown and dumping them in Aurora. Aurora is a strange place. It has some great retail options, a scary mall, some nice areas, and a public school district I wouldn't want to send my kids to. I'm surprised that Independence and Independence Center have held up as a stronghold for so long. If northern JoCo and the older parts of Olathe becoming kinda spotty as Wyandotte County residents move in, then I'm sure Independence and the older parts of Lee's Summit will see some decline in the future. There's a lot of sketchy section 8 housing not too far from Ikea and Oak Park Mall in Mission, KS now and a lot of suburban blight as well. Oak Park Mall and Independence Center could both fail like Westridge in Topeka and Towne West in Wichita are within 20 years. As they tank Legends and Zona Rosa will be the next targets. Looking at a crime map I was surprised to see that about as much happens at Zona Rosa as Oak Park and Independence Center, but I guess it's like both of them as well as Ward Parkway and The Plaza where it's near enough both nice and sketchy areas to see high end shoppers and thugs. I know stuff happens at Legends, but I never see as many Wyandotte County Plates there as I do MO, Leavenworth Douglas, Shawnee, and Johnson. The last two times I was dragged there it was for Dave and Busters. I personally find the whole development an inconvenient mess, but it is paving the way for a better tomorrow in KCK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
You can't totally blame the city though. They really had their hands tied and were backed into a corner with Cerner and Cerner knew it.


KCMO can only do so much in the incentives game. The revenue collected by the city is small compared to state revenue and the state of Missouri refused to take part in the excessive corporate welfare that Kansas was handing out. Even though the moves hurt KCMO, the state was better off letting the companies go to KS since the MO side employees would still pay income taxes to the state. Cerner trails campus was the first project where the state of Missouri threw all their tax money into the deal. Cerner will get back everything they generate from the KCMO etax to income taxes to sales taxes for decades. This it what Kansas has been doing for years and KCMO and Missouri wanted to try to save this once in a geration big fish from going to Kansas even though in order to do that, they would get almost nothing out of the deal. So it happened. An no Cerner would never leave the KC area. No other city/state in the county would give Cerner these kinds of incentives.
Except the city can be blamed because Kansas could neither put up the incentives for this project, nor do they really have any well located land left for it. The residents in Olathe are now protesting any and everything that wants to infill land including Garmin,.


If KCMO had checked its growth and done it smart in the first place there would be no need for the ETax in the first place as they would be able to afford city services without having people in the burbs pay for them. Then they could afford to find a way to offer incentives by using something like the ETax. I've seen some MO and KS suburban residents who are trying to start a movement to limit the ETax to people who live and work in the city and they're going to try to get in on any future voting by claiming the city is taxing them without representation. KCMO needs the ETax to survive, but it's their own fault they even need it. A lot of midwest cities are like KC where they make up of mostly suburban style sprawl, but the difference is that most of them have the population inside the sprawl to match the size. Hopefully the city will eventually gentrify enough to be sustainable without taxing people who don't even live there. The city budget would be a little better if they hadn't killed off both of their super regional malls with poor decisions and driven the sales tax revenue to other cities while essentially removing the properties from the tax roll. Metro North had way more potential to generate sales tax and property tax revenue than Zona Rosa ever will. Instead the city pulled a JoCo and decided to play a part in who should sink and who should swim. I won't even get into the laughable situation that went on when the Bannister Mall/Zoo area was opened up for extremely low income housing. That area is the textbook definition of modern rapid white flight.

Last edited by empires228; 02-06-2016 at 08:06 PM..
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Old 02-06-2016, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,994 posts, read 20,625,270 times
Reputation: 6024
Quote:
Originally Posted by empires228 View Post
That's true! I've seen news stories and heard from locals that for awhile (any maybe today) that Denver was rounding up homeless from downtown and dumping them in Aurora. Aurora is a strange place. It has some great retail options, a scary mall, some nice areas, and a public school district I wouldn't want to send my kids to. I'm surprised that Independence and Independence Center have held up as a stronghold for so long. If northern JoCo and the older parts of Olathe becoming kinda spotty as Wyandotte County residents move in, then I'm sure Independence and the older parts of Lee's Summit will see some decline in the future. There's a lot of sketchy section 8 housing not too far from Ikea and Oak Park Mall in Mission, KS now and a lot of suburban blight as well. Oak Park Mall and Independence Center could both fail like Westridge in Topeka and Towne West in Wichita are within 20 years. As they tank Legends and Zona Rosa will be the next targets. Looking at a crime map I was surprised to see that about as much happens at Zona Rosa as Oak Park and Independence Center, but I guess it's like both of them as well as Ward Parkway and The Plaza where it's near enough both nice and sketchy areas to see high end shoppers and thugs. I know stuff happens at Legends, but I never see as many Wyandotte County Plates there as I do MO, Leavenworth Douglas, Shawnee, and Johnson. The last two times I was dragged there it was for Dave and Busters. I personally find the whole development an inconvenient mess, but it is paving the way for a better tomorrow in KCK.



Except the city can be blamed because Kansas could neither put up the incentives for this project, nor do they really have any well located land left for it. The residents in Olathe are now protesting any and everything that wants to infill land including Garmin,.


If KCMO had checked its growth and done it smart in the first place there would be no need for the ETax in the first place as they would be able to afford city services without having people in the burbs pay for them. Then they could afford to find a way to offer incentives by using something like the ETax. I've seen some MO and KS suburban residents who are trying to start a movement to limit the ETax to people who live and work in the city and they're going to try to get in on any future voting by claiming the city is taxing them without representation. KCMO needs the ETax to survive, but it's their own fault they even need it. A lot of midwest cities are like KC where they make up of mostly suburban style sprawl, but the difference is that most of them have the population inside the sprawl to match the size. Hopefully the city will eventually gentrify enough to be sustainable without taxing people who don't even live there. The city budget would be a little better if they hadn't killed off both of their super regional malls with poor decisions and driven the sales tax revenue to other cities while essentially removing the properties from the tax roll. Metro North had way more potential to generate sales tax and property tax revenue than Zona Rosa ever will. Instead the city pulled a JoCo and decided to play a part in who should sink and who should swim. I won't even get into the laughable situation that went on when the Bannister Mall/Zoo area was opened up for extremely low income housing. That area is the textbook definition of modern rapid white flight.
A few responses to your post.

First off, the Legends is still the most likely development to fail. Even before Oak Park and Independence Center. Western Wyandotte County (or probably the entire county) simply does not have the demographics to support Village West. Right now it's a regional draw, but that will not last forever. Even with sporting park and the few office buildings etc out there now, that area is short hundreds of thousands of people to support the Legends mall and west WyCo is adding new residents VERY slowly. The Legends could go belly up in a very short time span very easily if people from Platte County, Johnson County etc start finding places closer to home and that will eventually happen. Independence Center is still the major indoor mall for population base 3-4 times that of all of WyCo and it's more affluent. Same with Oak Park. There is a reason why the Legends has had issues with refinancing etc and why the city of KCK actually owns a lot of the retail out there and leases it back to tenants.

There is nothing wrong with the KCMO Etax. Most KCMO residents have no problem paying it. Suburban residents that work in the city complain, but such is life. Many large cities all across the country have similar taxes. I pay 3% here. KCMO people are lucky. Oh and suburban residents pay like 20% of KCMO etax revenue. The vast majority of the revenue from the etax is form KCMO residents and businesses. I'll say it again. If you make 50k and can't deal with a $500 local tax ($9 a week), then you have bigger problems and if you mov away from KCMO and live in JoCo or Lee's Summit or something you will pay more in overall taxes, so the etax is totally blown out of proportion.

And how did the "city" kill its malls? The demise of Metro North Mal had nothing to do with the city. It's just natural retail developments. Northland growth patterns killed the mall. The northland had one location of everything near the mall. Then new development went up and retailers wanted to be in more than just one location but at the time, the northland couldn't support three major retail districts. So the Shoal Creek and Tiffany Springs areas developed and the mall died. The northlad is still growing so fast that now Metro North is about to come back and the Northland will have three super regional retail areas. Bannister Mall is a different animal. It came down to demographics (like the Legends).
Once the mall stopped being a regional destination (perceived crime etc) the area around the mall while more heavily populated than WyCo could not support a regional class A mall by itself.
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Old 02-07-2016, 06:06 PM
 
Location: KCK
29 posts, read 26,529 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke17 View Post
All the complaining about KS stealing companies away from KCMO, and yet a company chooses to invest so much $$$$$ into an area of KCMO... and people still complain. Mind blown.
Cerner more of a kansas company and they're using the knowledge people have of kansas poaching these companies as a form of leverage and pressure on Missouri.

I don't know if it's been mentioned already since I haven't read the entire thread but Cerner is only going to do this if Missouri gives them a huge tax incentive. The problem with this is they really have Missouri in a tough situation and Cerner doesn't want to give up any room in the agreement from what I've read. It's a perfect opportunity for MO having the chance to add something to an area that needs it and create good jobs too. From what I understand Missouri already has a somewhat tough time getting the tax money for big projects (although they still pull it off) and Cerner want's Missouri to subsidize building the campus by a pretty large margin. Cerner won't be paying for much of it and they can just say "if you guy's don't want to pay us we'll happily go buy a plot of land anywhere in the KS metro where we'll already be paying less taxes and you'll lose the 15,000 jobs."
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:42 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,994 posts, read 20,625,270 times
Reputation: 6024
There is a lot of positive things happening in downtown KC. I get that. But this Cerner project continues to get under my skin and really bothers me.
This might be a dead horse to most people, but personally, I think the Cerner HQ is the biggest mistake made so far in the history of Kansas City and in 20-30 years, people will look back and wonder what in the world city planners, regional leaders and the business community were thinking. KC will be able to point to the Cerner Campus and say that is where KC missed the chance of many generations to take the entire metro area to an entirely new level. Instead of competing with Denver, Minneapolis, Charlotte etc, KC would be forever stuck in a corporate welfare mess of suburban sprawl. Not learning from Corporate Woods or the Sprint Campus or the terrible placement of many regional assets (stadiums etc), and not only making the same mistake again, but doing so on a grand scale.

Cerner is currently one of the largest construction projects in the country and it will do almost nothing for the city. Over 20-30 years, the city is expected to actually lose tax money on the project and it will not improve the city or make it a more desirable metro area to move to.

An update on the Sagamore project in Baltimore. This is a huge project that will transform a decaying industrial area of the city into a vibrant mixed use urban district. The developers have released that they would like 535 million in incentives to do the project and the city is not too happy. I can only imagine their reaction if the Sagamore has proposed anything close to what Cerner has in Kansas City.

Sagamore (including new corporate headquarters for Under Armour).
5.5 billion dollar development, urban redevelopment, structured parking, highrise structures, extensive public infrastructure improvements and new public recreation areas.
True mixed use with office, recreational space, residential, hotels and retail
535 million dollar incentive package

“If passed, the tax increment financing or TIF, request would be among the largest in the U.S.”



Cerner:
4.45 billion dollar development, suburban redevelopment, surface parking, low and midrise structures, minimal public infrastructure improvements or access.
Mostly single use, private office park with a small retail center.
1.6 billion dollar incentive package



And this is only one of the ongoing projects in Baltimore:

Harbor Point:


Waterfront at Canton:


Plus a 44 story apartment tower just broke ground downtown and a 45 story office tower is to break ground this summer.


KC could be having this going on too if so much was not still happening in the suburbs.

Last edited by kcmo; 03-14-2016 at 05:54 AM..
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Old 03-14-2016, 07:58 AM
 
1,327 posts, read 1,180,801 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
There is a lot of positive things happening in downtown KC. I get that. But this Cerner project continues to get under my skin and really bothers me.
This might be a dead horse to most people, but personally, I think the Cerner HQ is the biggest mistake made so far in the history of Kansas City and in 20-30 years, people will look back and wonder what in the world city planners, regional leaders and the business community were thinking. KC will be able to point to the Cerner Campus and say that is where KC missed the chance of many generations to take the entire metro area to an entirely new level. Instead of competing with Denver, Minneapolis, Charlotte etc, KC would be forever stuck in a corporate welfare mess of suburban sprawl. Not learning from Corporate Woods or the Sprint Campus or the terrible placement of many regional assets (stadiums etc), and not only making the same mistake again, but doing so on a grand scale.

Cerner is currently one of the largest construction projects in the country and it will do almost nothing for the city. Over 20-30 years, the city is expected to actually lose tax money on the project and it will not improve the city or make it a more desirable metro area to move to.

An update on the Sagamore project in Baltimore. This is a huge project that will transform a decaying industrial area of the city into a vibrant mixed use urban district. The developers have released that they would like 535 million in incentives to do the project and the city is not too happy. I can only imagine their reaction if the Sagamore has proposed anything close to what Cerner has in Kansas City.

Sagamore (including new corporate headquarters for Under Armour).
5.5 billion dollar development, urban redevelopment, structured parking, highrise structures, extensive public infrastructure improvements and new public recreation areas.
True mixed use with office, recreational space, residential, hotels and retail
535 million dollar incentive package

“If passed, the tax increment financing or TIF, request would be among the largest in the U.S.”



Cerner:
4.45 billion dollar development, suburban redevelopment, surface parking, low and midrise structures, minimal public infrastructure improvements or access.
Mostly single use, private office park with a small retail center.
1.6 billion dollar incentive package



And this is only one of the ongoing projects in Baltimore:

Harbor Point:


Waterfront at Canton:


Plus a 44 story apartment tower just broke ground downtown and a 45 story office tower is to break ground this summer.


KC could be having this going on too if so much was not still happening in the suburbs.
Your point is well-made and I agree completely. But this?



This model looks like it was built by a team of third-graders using legos and link-n-logs.
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Old 03-14-2016, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,994 posts, read 20,625,270 times
Reputation: 6024
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwiksell View Post
Your point is well-made and I agree completely. But this?



This model looks like it was built by a team of third-graders using legos and link-n-logs.
haha, yea, I know. The rendering is pretty bad. But most renderings are. Most Cerner rendering as much worse for example .
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Old 03-14-2016, 02:14 PM
 
1,327 posts, read 1,180,801 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
haha, yea, I know. The rendering is pretty bad. But most renderings are. Most Cerner rendering as much worse for example .
Right. Although it looks like the plan in general is bad, not just the rendering.
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Old 03-14-2016, 07:10 PM
 
1,310 posts, read 1,167,413 times
Reputation: 796
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwiksell View Post
Right. Although it looks like the plan in general is bad, not just the rendering.
I think the tax incentive for Port Covington is too large but the plan is generally OK. I don't like the picket fence of high-rises along the interstate.

Last edited by pwduvall; 03-14-2016 at 08:34 PM..
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Old 03-31-2016, 09:01 PM
 
2 posts, read 1,905 times
Reputation: 10
I live about less than 2 minutes away from the Cerner Project, and I love that a big time company decided to invest in this site considering all the offers this property has been thru, but I think that Cerner was a little selfish. They have tons of space and they only incorporated to have about 300 sq ft of retail? Come on now. But at least it's contributing to bring back SE KCMO. The good news is that I've seen many new structures rise that's less than 20 minutes away.

[url]http://www.kansascity.com/news/business/development/article54478015.html
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Old 04-01-2016, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,994 posts, read 20,625,270 times
Reputation: 6024
Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveKCMO View Post
I live about less than 2 minutes away from the Cerner Project, and I love that a big time company decided to invest in this site considering all the offers this property has been thru, but I think that Cerner was a little selfish. They have tons of space and they only incorporated to have about 300 sq ft of retail? Come on now. But at least it's contributing to bring back SE KCMO. The good news is that I've seen many new structures rise that's less than 20 minutes away.

[url]http://www.kansascity.com/news/business/development/article54478015.html
A "little selfish". It's off the charts. They are taking over a billion dollars in incentives and building a single used, walled off office park that will have almost zero impact on South Kansas City other than make it look a little nicer from the interstate. This is a case where you take what you can get I guess and this is better than Cerner building this campus at K10 and K7 in JoCo or something. But it could have been a much much better project for South KC or they could have gone downtown and built only office structures (the economic spinoff development would take care of itself downtown).

The Cerner campus should have included a large residential component with the incentives they were given. That would have actually re branded the area and wiped clean many of the negative images the area has now. New residential in single family, apartments, row houses etc mixed with retail, hotels, and 4 million sq ft of offices would have triggered a drastic and transforming change to SKC and it would have radiated into the surrounding neighborhoods in the area. Instead, you will basically have 16000 people commute there from Lee's Summit, JoCo, Downtown etc every day and park in a surface lot the size of the truman sports complex. This project is gong to turn into the biggest development blunder and biggest missed opportunity in the history of kansas city and KC will barely get a penny of tax revenue from it over the next 30 years.

But you take what you can get right?

Moving on...

You are right though. There is some decent development that is starting to pick up in the area.

There is a warehouse and business park going up across 435 south of 87th on top the old mined out areas there. Then north of 87th between 435 and 71 you have Oxford on the Blue. A huge project backed by the Stowers that's actually mixed use and will include a large residential portion. It will be large office/research park. I believe they are starting to do site work there now for some of the first phases.

http://www.oxfordontheblue.com/

South KC needs residential. It needs some new market rate apartment complexes at the very least to start going up along side the Cerner buildings. Even if Cerner is building out the Bannister land with only Cerner buildings, I really hope to see some redevelopment in the surrounding area. Tear down the old retail buildings along Bannister and 87th and put up some nice apartment complexes etc. This is what incentives are for and where they should be used the most.

Even with the terribly designed Cerner campus, the impact could be great to SKC if the city and local developers make redeveloping the surrounding area a priority. But again, when you can get incentives to build new apartments on 135th in Overland Park, it's nearly impossible to make the numbers work even with incentives to rebuild the area around the Cerner campus. But can you imagine if Bannister and 87th were gutted and replaced with something like Renner Blvd in Lenexa and what that would do for the entire SKC area? Then you are starting to see some return on that billion dollar incentive package that KCMO and Missouri gave Cerner.
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