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You're not getting it and I can't explain any better. There was a day before things were like they are now. I'm barely able to see that, because I'm barely old enough to have seen any of the change. I have to wonder if maybe you're younger than me. Like I said, I'm 28.
The area around Indian Springs collapsed. It's at an all-time low. But it wasn't an odd place for a mall at all. It's on the western edge of a highly-populated area. There was no room for it further east. It was a successful mall. And it didn't have all lower-end stores. I mentioned the community-oriented places because I was making a point about how malls used to be a sort of community center the way downtowns were and how malls sort of replaced them. Indian Springs was anchored by Dillard's (was Macy's before Dillard's bought them out in KC), JCPenney, and Montgomery Ward, and had all of the normal mall stores in addition to the things I already mentioned.
I don't really consider Denver a peer of KCMO in that regard because composition of the population is drastically different, isn't it? If Denver had the black population that KCMO does and the distraught leftover industrial population, it would have a murder rate the same as KCMO. By the way, isn't there a suburb of Denver that is partly similar to KCK, meaning diverse and with significant crime? I can't remember which Denver suburb is, but I'm curious about how its murder rate compares to KCK.
No, I'm in my 40s. I remember going to that mall when I was a little kid. Immediately around the mall and to the west is almost semi-rural, as is much of KCK. I don't know what happened in the immediate area that led to what appears to be everything being torn down. But KCK has never been a rich city. If there were people spending lots of money at the mall, then it would have succeded.
I wouldn't compare Aurora to KCK. Aurora has it's crappy parts, but it's a large city that also has high end neighborhoods in the east and southeastern areas of the city. And it's a lot denser than KCK. I'm not sure how it compares with it's murder rate. I couldn't find the stats for some reason. But overall, Denver (the entire metro area) doesn't have an huge areas of poverty, like KCMO and KCK do. There are pockets here and there.
No, I'm in my 40s. I remember going to that mall when I was a little kid. Immediately around the mall and to the west is almost semi-rural, as is much of KCK. I don't know what happened in the immediate area that led to what appears to be everything being torn down. But KCK has never been a rich city. If there were people spending lots of money at the mall, then it would have succeeded.
A place doesn't have to be rich to have a successful mall, especially not in the past when the middle class was larger and there was less socioeconomic segregation, such as when and where Indian Springs was built. There were people spending money and shopping at the mall, that is why it was successful. White (and middle-class) flight took place and that's why the mall was no longer successful. People stopped going there. There were a few high-profile incidents of crime, with one being a store (Radio Shack, I think) manager being murdered I believe.
A place doesn't have to be rich to have a successful mall, especially not in the past when the middle class was larger and there was less socioeconomic segregation, such as when and where Indian Springs was built. There were people spending money and shopping at the mall, that is why it was successful. White (and middle-class) flight took place and that's why the mall was no longer successful. People stopped going there. There were a few high-profile incidents of crime, with one being a store (Radio Shack, I think) manager being murdered I believe.
Malls fail for different reasons. But having people with expendable incomes nearby certainly helps a mall succeed. Mecalf South failed not due to surrounding demographics, but oversaturation with Oak Park just down 95th St. If Indian Springs got a reputation for violent crime, I'm sure that had a lot to do with it.
^I was talking about Aurora, a portion of which seems to be just as bad as KCK, especially in terms of murder rate. However, Aurora's "crime rate" is diluted by the fact it's sort of like KCK combined with Olathe or something. At a glance, I'm guessing a lot of Denver's destitute and distraught population was pushed into Aurora? If that's the case, that's also part of why Denver's murder rate is relatively low. I don't know much about Denver or if what I said is true, but I suspect so. Denver's housing is very expensive and I doubt it always has been. I'm thinking the influx of Californians, etc. gentrified formerly modest and poor areas and pushed those people out of the city of Denver, thus lowering the murder rate and overall crime rate.
Denver's "bad areas" are more isolated and scattered, rather than having large swaths of the metro area or city that are mile after mile of poverty. The historically "black" part of Denver is in pretty good condition and is no longer only black people. The poorest areas where crime is high tend to be old apartment complexes that house immigrants from around the world and SW Denver that attracts recent Hispanic immigrants. But overall, Denver is much more integrated than metro KC.
I have noticed over the years that JoCo is much more integrated than it was when I left in the 80s.
And Aurora is over 350K people, and you're right, it has everything from old poor neighborhoods where crime is higher and suburban sprawl/new housing on the SE fringes. It gets a bad reputation, but I don't think it's so bad overall. It's quite diverse, racially and socioeconomically.
lol! Your link shows a document that says Denver Asians are integrated well. But just looking at this map The Racial Dot Map: One Dot Per Person for the Entire U.S.
it sure does look like metro KC is much more segregated. Look at that obvious line running through the whole city. Uh... Troost?
And then on this site, http://www.s4.brown.edu/us2010/Data/Report/report2.pdf I can see that KC ranks number 28 on the list of the top 50 metro areas with the most black/white segregation. Although it shows how much that is improving. Denver doesn't make the top 50.
All metro areas have segregation. But to claim segregation in Denver is worse than in KC is crazy. I grew up in norther Overland Park in the 80s and I didn't know a single non-white person. That's changed a lot since then.
Can anyone tell me what is going on with the Power & Light District. I haven't been in the area after 6 pm for 5 or 6 years. I have heard that crime is causing an issue there as well. A friend told me there was an issue with dress code that was the turning point. Another person had told me that it's been a very trashy crowd compared to the first few years it was open and they have started charging to get into the common area to help keep "those kind" out. In my opinion that area is the center piece for downtown KC, so I hope it hasn't gone down hill that much. I may just have to check it out for myself the next time I'm in town.
If I'm to do the eye test on both cities demographic maps I would have to say that Denver's minority pockets blend rather nicely in most places. There certainly isn't a Troost style dividing line. I'm not sure for the cause, but even less noticeable driving through Denver than it is on a map.
When I was a kid my brothers and I could walk from 13th and Parallel back to our old part of town almost to 38th and Sortor drive delivering papers every Friday arriving back home around 10 pm. If we were late my parents would have never thought we got shot. To give you an idea how long ago that was, on two occasions we were chased by older whites when we passed by a dinner on 18th street less than a block south of Quindaro.
What I saw happen to KCK happened in my family as well as many families. Kids grew up raising themselves. Not because there was no father or mother in the home but due to that fact there was money to be made working in Fairfax and parents left their kids to fend for themselves while they earned a lot of money. Poor black people came out of the south with nearly nothing and BOUGHT houses, you can't do that today. Those kids grew up thinking they like their parents with no education would get big money jobs as Teamsters too.
In those days I could go from house to house most days and nights where there were no adults home and we did what ever we wanted to while parents worked overtime and bought nice cars and nice homes with out even being able to read and write. One family who was literally picking cotton in Mississippi the previous season came to KCK bought a four bedroom house and two new cars. All the boys in that family have served time and one is dead.
Very few families insisted that their kids finish school because after all you could do real well
in fairfax with out an education. By the time I left in around 1978 I could see the writing on the wall. The part time job I was working as a fifteen year old for a little walking around money, six years later had more uneducated adults working there than kids.
The youth who are raising havoc in that city today are the grandchildren of the poor folks who came there for a better life in the sixties. IMO there has been two lost generations in KCK.
Last edited by thriftylefty; 08-05-2014 at 03:13 PM..
Can anyone tell me what is going on with the Power & Light District. I haven't been in the area after 6 pm for 5 or 6 years. I have heard that crime is causing an issue there as well. A friend told me there was an issue with dress code that was the turning point. Another person had told me that it's been a very trashy crowd compared to the first few years it was open and they have started charging to get into the common area to help keep "those kind" out. In my opinion that area is the center piece for downtown KC, so I hope it hasn't gone down hill that much. I may just have to check it out for myself the next time I'm in town.
If I'm to do the eye test on both cities demographic maps I would have to say that Denver's minority pockets blend rather nicely in most places. There certainly isn't a Troost style dividing line. I'm not sure for the cause, but even less noticeable driving through Denver than it is on a map.
I have not heard anything negative about the P&L. The press was all over them a few years ago trying to make the dress code into a bigger story than it was. But they have apparently moved on to the plaza to try and make sure that area is dangerous too.
As far as Indian Springs. I would agree. KCK alone just doesn’t have the demographics to support a regional mall. There is only 150,000 in the entire county and much of that is poverty. Indian Springs was never a very large mall nor did it have a lot of upscale tenants. But it was a super-regional destination serving not only Wyandotte County, but even parts of JoCo, Platte etc. It was one of the areas first indoor malls and that was a draw back in its heyday. The same thing is going on with the Legends. That mall will go out of business in a year if it lost its regional draw.
Indian Springs is near some very run down and poor areas to the east and the oddball semi-rural sprawl with relatively low household incomes to the west. The mall was never updated, and some minor crime scares combined new malls opening up reducing regional pull killed Indian Springs.
Even though the area would never support a million sq ft regional mall, it could and should have been developed into a big box power center by now. Much like Blue Ridge Mall in East KC has done. I know central KCK is getting some new or redeveloped strip malls, but Indian Springs could have been redeveloped as well. While the Legends is a regional shopping center pulling from over a million people, the target, Walmart, Costco and all that other stuff primarily serves WyCo residents and some of that could have gone at the Indian Springs Mall site or any of the vast number of other possible redevelopment or infill empty land sites along the I-70, State Ave and Parallel Pkwy corridors.
Instead, most of KCK looks like hell while they have a little pocket of suburban retail way out west. I can’t imagine living at 68th and State and having to drive clear to the speedway to go to target or costco. That's like what people in rural small towns have to do.
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