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Old 07-13-2016, 08:41 PM
 
172 posts, read 98,543 times
Reputation: 102

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I like the idea, but KC is not dense enough for dedicated light rail. This might make sense at and north of the Plaza. South of the plaza, the returns diminish too much to justify light rail, as neighborhoods are too sparse. I would love for KC to prove me wrong though.
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Old 07-14-2016, 06:46 AM
 
1,298 posts, read 983,604 times
Reputation: 658
Quote:
Originally Posted by luzianne View Post
Well, to be fair, I see posters ALL THE TIME come in here on their first (and sometimes only) post to say KC needs a new airport or urban KC is great or Missouri is good/Kansas is bad. So I don't see a problem with this poster giving their thoughts about how streetcar ridership is measured on their first post.


And...does he have a point? Is weekday ridership generally what is tabulated and not weekends/holidays? Do people actually ride the streetcar to get to/from work, or only for something fun (and free) to try?
Brand-new posters can be as passionate about their cause as they like, doesn't matter to me. It's when they get belligerent on their second post that I find it obnoxious.

As I pointed out before, it's pretty obvious here that Methchild is actually perennial petitioner, east cost resident and choo-choo enthusiast Clay Chastain. So he sort of got off on the wrong foot with me by lambasting the Streetcar in favor of a pipedream scheme for a light rail line.

The operative word in Chastain's light rail plan is "light", referring no doubt to eventual ridership if his plan were ever executed.
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Old 07-14-2016, 07:00 AM
 
80 posts, read 69,860 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwiksell View Post
Brand-new posters can be as passionate about their cause as they like, doesn't matter to me. It's when they get belligerent on their second post that I find it obnoxious.

As I pointed out before, it's pretty obvious here that Methchild is actually perennial petitioner, east cost resident and choo-choo enthusiast Clay Chastain. So he sort of got off on the wrong foot with me by lambasting the Streetcar in favor of a pipedream scheme for a light rail line.

The operative word in Chastain's light rail plan is "light", referring no doubt to eventual ridership if his plan were ever executed.
^ This
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Old 07-14-2016, 08:22 AM
 
3 posts, read 1,269 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
I actually agree with most of what you say here. However, with or without light rail, the streetcar is a good fit for the urban core of KCMO.

It's too bad that KC is basically making the streetcar pretty much "it". The streetcar should be a component complementing a regional light rail system. But it's better than nothing.
KCMO wrote this on another thread titled "Where Kansas City Went Wrong":

"Not passing the two major city backed light rail starter line plans in the 90’s. The first one was a very basic line from the River Market to the Plaza. It was pretty far along in preliminary planning and design, had a very good shot of being mostly funded by the federal government. Mayor Cleaver basically killed it calling it "touristy frou frou" for not going to the east side. Had that line been built, the city would probably have several expansions by now, including the east side. The other plan came later after the city reversed the Clay Chastian plan that passed a vote. The city put out a well thought out starter system that was to go from south of Gladstone to Swope Park with two lines south of downtown (one to the plaza and another along 71). It failed. Again, had the city passed that, it would have put KC in a totally different league of cities. It would have connected downtown to the plaza, connected the east side to northland jobs, and there would likely be expansion to the suburbs or into Kansas by now. Instead the city is just now getting a streetcar line that only goes 20 blocks." [Emphasis Mechthild's]

I believe "KCMO" has hit the nail on the head with both posts. Participants in this Forum can moan and complain derisively about, horror of horrors, a first time writer (me) who lives in South Central Pennsylvania as pointed out by one of the erstwhile contributors to this Board. But, in my opinion, this only underscores the provincialism which has always been a hallmark (small "h") of too many Kansas Citians and one that has done a lot of damage to the City's reputation and progress over the years. It so happens I grew up in Kansas City and went to college there. I loved the City growing up but must say it has turned the corner to somewhere other than the place I knew. By the way, I roared with laughter at the accusation that I was Clay Chastain using an alias. Frankly, I felt somewhat privileged to be so characterized. So, in the words of the old Buddy Holly song, "Rave On!"

Last edited by Mechthild; 07-14-2016 at 08:30 AM.. Reason: Wording
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Old 07-14-2016, 11:11 AM
 
12,607 posts, read 14,613,304 times
Reputation: 14101
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwiksell View Post
Brand-new posters can be as passionate about their cause as they like, doesn't matter to me. It's when they get belligerent on their second post that I find it obnoxious.

As I pointed out before, it's pretty obvious here that Methchild is actually perennial petitioner, east cost resident and choo-choo enthusiast Clay Chastain. So he sort of got off on the wrong foot with me by lambasting the Streetcar in favor of a pipedream scheme for a light rail line.

The operative word in Chastain's light rail plan is "light", referring no doubt to eventual ridership if his plan were ever executed.
I seem to remember you jumping in posting inflammatory and belligerent crap when you were new, too. I think it's ridiculous of you to accuse the poster of being Clay Chastain.


And again, like I asked before, does the "brand-new poster" have a point in saying that normally ridership is measured by weekday riders and not weekend/holiday riders? And again I ask - do people really use it to get to and from work, or are they only riding it as a novelty, something that is fun and free?
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Old 07-14-2016, 11:17 AM
 
2,195 posts, read 2,146,270 times
Reputation: 1916
Quote:
Originally Posted by luzianne View Post
And again I ask - do people really use it to get to and from work, or are they only riding it as a novelty, something that is fun and free?
It doesn't matter.
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Old 07-14-2016, 11:19 AM
 
12,607 posts, read 14,613,304 times
Reputation: 14101
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.davis View Post
It doesn't matter.
Of course it matters. If it's just a novelty, people are going to try it once or twice because it's free and then be done with it. If people are actually using it for transportation to and from work, then it will continue to be used. Wouldn't that be the whole point of calculating ridership on weekdays as opposed to weekends/holidays?


It's kind of expensive to just be a novelty.
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Old 07-14-2016, 11:25 AM
 
1,298 posts, read 983,604 times
Reputation: 658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechthild View Post
KCMO wrote this on another thread titled "Where Kansas City Went Wrong":

"Not passing the two major city backed light rail starter line plans in the 90ís. The first one was a very basic line from the River Market to the Plaza. It was pretty far along in preliminary planning and design, had a very good shot of being mostly funded by the federal government. Mayor Cleaver basically killed it calling it "touristy frou frou" for not going to the east side. Had that line been built, the city would probably have several expansions by now, including the east side. The other plan came later after the city reversed the Clay Chastian plan that passed a vote. The city put out a well thought out starter system that was to go from south of Gladstone to Swope Park with two lines south of downtown (one to the plaza and another along 71). It failed. Again, had the city passed that, it would have put KC in a totally different league of cities. It would have connected downtown to the plaza, connected the east side to northland jobs, and there would likely be expansion to the suburbs or into Kansas by now. Instead the city is just now getting a streetcar line that only goes 20 blocks." [Emphasis Mechthild's]

I believe "KCMO" has hit the nail on the head with both posts. Participants in this Forum can moan and complain derisively about, horror of horrors, a first time writer (me) who lives in South Central Pennsylvania as pointed out by one of the erstwhile contributors to this Board. But, in my opinion, this only underscores the provincialism which has always been a hallmark (small "h") of too many Kansas Citians and one that has done a lot of damage to the City's reputation and progress over the years. It so happens I grew up in Kansas City and went to college there. I loved the City growing up but must say it has turned the corner to somewhere other than the place I knew. By the way, I roared with laughter at the accusation that I was Clay Chastain using an alias. Frankly, I felt somewhat privileged to be so characterized. So, in the words of the old Buddy Holly song, "Rave On!"
Hey, I like trains too. And as an urbanist and train-lover, I've been in favor of pretty much every mass-transit proposal Kansas City has seen. Because they're cool. But to be honest, if any of them had been built at the time, they would have been poorly utilized, and probably soured the electorate on any expansions or future projects. Kansas City is JUST NOW starting to get some critical mass in its urban districts, to where incentives aren't needed for every little urban project.

It's not that Kansas City is behind the times when it comes to transit. It's behind the times when it comes to urban development period. So for transit to jump out ahead of things is nice, if the city is willing to foot the bill to let transit act as a catalyst for development. But it's expensive, because it takes time to let the tax base catch up, as transit-oriented development picks up speed.

I don't think Kansas City's leadership. or voting public, have that kind of patience. Which his why I like how things are panning out at the moment. PROVIDED, of course, that the Streetcar is quickly expanded to the Plaza.

And if you say you're not Clay Chastain, I'll believe you. But you're definitely his biggest fan. I assume you two get together in Baltimore from time to time to talk trains, since you're just about the only two people on the east coast who care deeply about the ones in Kansas City. (Interestingly, user "kcmo" would probably round out that group rather nicely.)
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Old 07-14-2016, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,498,983 times
Reputation: 5415
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwiksell View Post
Hey, I like trains too. And as an urbanist and train-lover, I've been in favor of pretty much every mass-transit proposal Kansas City has seen. Because they're cool. But to be honest, if any of them had been built at the time, they would have been poorly utilized, and probably soured the electorate on any expansions or future projects. Kansas City is JUST NOW starting to get some critical mass in its urban districts, to where incentives aren't needed for every little urban project.

It's not that Kansas City is behind the times when it comes to transit. It's behind the times when it comes to urban development period. So for transit to jump out ahead of things is nice, if the city is willing to foot the bill to let transit act as a catalyst for development. But it's expensive, because it takes time to let the tax base catch up, as transit-oriented development picks up speed.

I don't think Kansas City's leadership. or voting public, have that kind of patience. Which his why I like how things are panning out at the moment. PROVIDED, of course, that the Streetcar is quickly expanded to the Plaza.

And if you say you're not Clay Chastain, I'll believe you. But you're definitely his biggest fan. I assume you two get together in Baltimore from time to time to talk trains, since you're just about the only two people on the east coast who care deeply about the ones in Kansas City. (Interestingly, user "kcmo" would probably round out that group rather nicely.)
If you have ever read any of Chastain's opinion pieces in the KC Star, you would know that Mechthild is not him. While I applaud Chastain's passion, it's his way or no way and he has extreme "tunnel vision" and can't see any other viewpoint or alternative other than his own, plus his number one obsession is running light rail to KCI which would be one of the most wasteful transit projects to ever be built in this country if it were to happen.

As far as KC not being ready for light rail. Did you by chance visit places like Charlotte, Phoenix, Houston, Dallas, Salt Lake City etc in the years before they opened their starter lines? Even Denver, Portland etc were not all that different from KC today back when they built their starter lines. I think that's just an excuse honestly. While KC is spread out, it has a very transit friendly urban core and at least two regional corridors (I-35 to Olathe and I-70 to Blue Springs) that could easily accommodate and support properly designed light rail.
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Old 07-14-2016, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,498,983 times
Reputation: 5415
Oh and I agree about the daily ridership numbers. I hope people don't get too carried away with some of those numbers or it might come back to haunt them when they do start to go down and people use the high numbers against the pro streetcar people to show "declining ridership". It seems like half the people riding them are doing so to check it out and play on the system and once everybody rides it, the numbers will go down till it's expanded.

I still think it's very successful and good for the city though.
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