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Old 07-22-2016, 12:21 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
3,658 posts, read 1,768,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.davis View Post
Pretty sure that is not correct vis-a-via the stats for Minneapolis/St Paul. In fact, there's a note at the bottom of table suggesting St Paul is included. Regardless, the take away is that Minneapolis is and always has been, considerably "bigger" than KC in most real-world ways, especially with the inclusion of St Paul. Pre-war Kansas City, in fact, fell somewhere between Minneapolis and St. Paul population wise, and Kansas City today feels a great deal more like St Paul than it does Minneapolis.
That note is confusingly worded.

If you go back and look under the "Core city population, 2010" column, in the row for "Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN", you will see the number "382.6" (figures expressed in thousands).

Here's the populations for Minneapolis city, Hennepin County, Minnesota, and St. Paul city, Ramsey County, Minnesota, from the 2010 census:

Geography Total
Minneapolis city, Hennepin County, Minnesota 382578
St. Paul city, Ramsey County, Minnesota 285068

IOW, the note explains that the population is for the largest named city in the metro only and that "Additional for" passage was ignored. In Minneapolis-St. Paul, that omits St. Paul; in San Francisco-Oakland, that omits Oakland. You will note that the "urban core" populations in both are larger than the "urban core" populations, which means the territory at the very least extends beyond the "core city". The figure of "444.3" (444,300) given for Minneapolis-St. Paul suggests to me that it includes most of both Minneapolis and St. Paul, but not all of both cities. Similarly, the figure of 1,185,600 for San Francisco-Oakland leads me to conclude that the "urban core" there includes the entire "core city" of San Francisco alone (805,200) plus part of the city of Oakland (2010 population 411,480).

By contrast, the "urban core" population for Kansas City of 107,800 is less than that for the City of Kansas City, Mo., as a whole (459,800), so it probably includes only part of the pre-WW2 built-up city.

The Twin Cities metro was, is, and probably always will be larger than metropolitan Kansas City. The cities of Minneapolis and Kansas City, Mo., have roughly equal populations within their city limits (well, no longer thanks to the annexation that took place in KC), while the city of St. Paul has always been larger than the city of Kansas City, Kan., pre- or post-Unified Government.

OTOH, the region now has a "conurbation" not unlike that of the Northeast Corridor, only much smaller. It consists of the Kansas City-Overland Park-Kansas City CSA (which includes the Atchison, KS and Warrensburg, MO mSAs [micropolitan statistical areas, usually identified with the lowercase Greek letter mu in the first position]), the St. Joseph, MO-KS MSA, the Lawrence, KS MSA and the Topeka, KS MSA, all of which are contiguous. Traffic among them is certainly non-trivial, and just about everyone flying in or out of these areas would most likely use KCI (which IMO is an argument for building that new terminal).
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Old 07-22-2016, 12:45 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thriftylefty View Post
Kansas City wanted to be known as the Home office to the world.[...] TWA left in 64.
The city did have a sizable number of companies headquartered there for a city its size. Even after TWA moved its corporate HQ to NYC, I can recall the following large regional or national firms in the 1960s and 1970s:

Western Auto Supply Co.
Hallmark Cards Inc.
Russell Stover Candies Inc.
Business Men's Assurance Company of America
Kansas City Life Insurance Company
Old American (not sure I have that name right) Insurance Company (every year at Christmastime, the story of Jesus' birth would be flashed on the blank wall of its headquarters at Volker Boulevard and Oak Street)
Folger Coffee Company (prior to its purchase by Procter & Gamble in the 1970s)
Farmland Industries (the double-circle Co-Ops; I think at its peak it was the largest cooperative in the United States. You might be surprised to learn how many popular brands on your grocers' shelves are made by cooperatives)
Kansas City Southern Industries, Inc.
American Multi Cinema, Inc. (nee Durwood Theaters)
United Telephone Company (not yet Sprint Corporation)
The Vendo Company

And yet it also had a reputation as a "branch plant town". I think that's mainly because all of the railroads save the Kansas City Southern and a lot of the manufacturers were headquartered outside the city, including all of the auto and truck manufacturers that made the city second only to Detroit in combined car and truck production, Sheffield Steel (acquired by Armco in the mid-1960s) and Sunshine Biscuits (founded as Loose-Wiles Biscuit Company and headquartered in KC until it moved its HQ to New York like TWA did).

There were also a number of well-known nonprofits: the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the American Academy of General Practitioners (later the American Academy of Family Practice, to which "Marcus Welby, M.D." belonged), the American Nurses' Association, and, of course, the National Collegiate Athletic Association, which Indianapolis swiped.

Not too bad for a "small" city, if you ask me. (I've long considered Kansas City the smallest of the Big Cities and the biggest of the mid-sized ones.)
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Old 07-22-2016, 07:37 AM
 
2,195 posts, read 2,145,372 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
That note is confusingly worded.

If you go back and look under the "Core city population, 2010" column, in the row for "Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN", you will see the number "382.6" (figures expressed in thousands).

Here's the populations for Minneapolis city, Hennepin County, Minnesota, and St. Paul city, Ramsey County, Minnesota, from the 2010 census:

Geography Total
Minneapolis city, Hennepin County, Minnesota 382578
St. Paul city, Ramsey County, Minnesota 285068

IOW, the note explains that the population is for the largest named city in the metro only and that "Additional for" passage was ignored. In Minneapolis-St. Paul, that omits St. Paul; in San Francisco-Oakland, that omits Oakland. You will note that the "urban core" populations in both are larger than the "urban core" populations, which means the territory at the very least extends beyond the "core city". The figure of "444.3" (444,300) given for Minneapolis-St. Paul suggests to me that it includes most of both Minneapolis and St. Paul, but not all of both cities. Similarly, the figure of 1,185,600 for San Francisco-Oakland leads me to conclude that the "urban core" there includes the entire "core city" of San Francisco alone (805,200) plus part of the city of Oakland (2010 population 411,480).

By contrast, the "urban core" population for Kansas City of 107,800 is less than that for the City of Kansas City, Mo., as a whole (459,800), so it probably includes only part of the pre-WW2 built-up city.

The Twin Cities metro was, is, and probably always will be larger than metropolitan Kansas City. The cities of Minneapolis and Kansas City, Mo., have roughly equal populations within their city limits (well, no longer thanks to the annexation that took place in KC), while the city of St. Paul has always been larger than the city of Kansas City, Kan., pre- or post-Unified Government.
Got it.
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Old 07-22-2016, 07:44 AM
 
2,195 posts, read 2,145,372 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
all of the auto and truck manufacturers that made the city second only to Detroit in combined car and truck production

Not too bad for a "small" city, if you ask me. (I've long considered Kansas City the smallest of the Big Cities and the biggest of the mid-sized ones.)
KC is still the 2nd largest auto industry manufacturing production hub in the US.

I think of KC not as a Big City at all, but as one of the smallest mid-sized cities.
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Old 07-22-2016, 11:25 AM
 
1,298 posts, read 983,095 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.davis View Post
KC is still the 2nd largest auto industry manufacturing production hub in the US.

I think of KC not as a Big City at all, but as one of the smallest mid-sized cities.
Wow, I think you have an inflated definition of "mid-sized" city. I guess it's relative and all, but if KC is one of the smallest mid-sized cities, then you would have to consider the following "small cities"

SMALL CITIES, according to s.davis:

Oklahoma City
Memphis
Louisville
Salt Lake City
New Orleans
Indianapolis
Columbus, OH
Buffalo
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Old 07-22-2016, 03:35 PM
 
2,195 posts, read 2,145,372 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwiksell View Post
Oklahoma City
Memphis
Louisville
Salt Lake City
New Orleans
Indianapolis
Columbus, OH
Buffalo
I consider Columbus and Indianapolis to also be on the small end of mid-sized, but yes, all the rest of those I think of as small cities.
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Old 07-23-2016, 07:13 AM
 
1,298 posts, read 983,095 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.davis View Post
I consider Columbus and Indianapolis to also be on the small end of mid-sized, but yes, all the rest of those I think of as small cities.
OK, so those are all small cities, which means the next tier below doesn't even qualify as a city?

NON-CITIES (a.k.a. towns) according to s.davis:

Tulsa
Des Moines
Omaha
Rochester
Little Rock
Spokane
Montgomery
Santa Fe
Colorado Springs
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Old 07-23-2016, 08:25 AM
 
2,195 posts, read 2,145,372 times
Reputation: 1916
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwiksell View Post
OK, so those are all small cities, which means the next tier below doesn't even qualify as a city?

NON-CITIES (a.k.a. towns) according to s.davis:

Tulsa
Des Moines
Omaha
Rochester
Little Rock
Spokane
Montgomery
Santa Fe
Colorado Springs
Yup, those are all what I would consider "towns".

Don't get too hung up on it. It's just my opinon.
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Old 07-23-2016, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
3,658 posts, read 1,768,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.davis View Post
Yup, those are all what I would consider "towns".

Don't get too hung up on it. It's just my opinon.
Gotcha.

Because if I understand your definition of the metropolitan hierarchy accurately, my current hometown of Philadelphia (city population: 1.5 million; metro population: 6.2 million) would probably define the upper end of the "mid-sized" cities.

And it's the fifth- or sixth-biggest metropolitan area in the United States. Kansas City hovers between 25 and 30.
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:16 PM
 
1,298 posts, read 983,095 times
Reputation: 658
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.davis View Post
Yup, those are all what I would consider "towns".

Don't get too hung up on it. It's just my opinon.
I'm not hung up on it. Nor am I offended by it, but I hope you're not offended if I ask you what this opinion is based on. How do you actually define a "city" if a metro of 1 million people somehow doesn't qualify?
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