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Throw in all the freeloading JoCo does off KCMO's attractions while at the same time building competing bush league attractions (that are really only for obtaining STAR bonds) and refusing to cooperate on regional transit etc and yea, the state line is a bigger issue than people know or care about. The inability for Johnson and Jackson Counties (by far the two largest in the region) to get along is doing real harm to the metro.
What is it with this persistent mention of "freeloading?"
First of all, unless there is some great JoCo perk of getting into the stadiums, the zoo, the Sprint Center, etc. for free or reduced cost that I am unaware of, then there is no freeloading going on. Besides, I thought using tax money for businesses is such a bad thing in JoCo, we wouldn't want KC, MO to touch that tainted money now would we? No, the freeloading is going on in KC, MO. A 1% tax on all earnings that keeps the city inhabitants from understanding the true cost to run their own city. Take a look at the south end of 435 during rush hour, tell me where the traffic is coming/going. Somehow that freeloading JoCo magically makes due without pulling money from it's non-residents paychecks. The toilets flow, the snow gets cleared, the trash gets removed, the cops drive around.
For all the talk about how crappy JoCo is, it's amazing it is still standing. Here's a good thought experiment, just what would happen to KC, MO without all those star attractions that bring those suburban dollars flooding into the city? And just what else would JoCo be doing if they had them on their side instead?
Why would they have a reason to assume good intentions from the KC, MO government? The voters overwhelmingly disapprove of their boondoggles but they find a way to make it happen anyway. A billion dollar airport isn't wanted, well just start shutting down terminals and go out of the way to renovate (with tax payer money, of course) what's left open into idiotic configurations to create headaches for the citizens. Who's to say the bow-tie wearing sly-guy in city hall wouldn't have some disagreement with his counterparts in the evil JoCo and just decide to move a rail line to a dead end right at state line?
What is it with this persistent mention of "freeloading?"
First of all, unless there is some great JoCo perk of getting into the stadiums, the zoo, the Sprint Center, etc. for free or reduced cost that I am unaware of, then there is no freeloading going on. Besides, I thought using tax money for businesses is such a bad thing in JoCo, we wouldn't want KC, MO to touch that tainted money now would we? No, the freeloading is going on in KC, MO. A 1% tax on all earnings that keeps the city inhabitants from understanding the true cost to run their own city. Take a look at the south end of 435 during rush hour, tell me where the traffic is coming/going. Somehow that freeloading JoCo magically makes due without pulling money from it's non-residents paychecks. The toilets flow, the snow gets cleared, the trash gets removed, the cops drive around.
For all the talk about how crappy JoCo is, it's amazing it is still standing. Here's a good thought experiment, just what would happen to KC, MO without all those star attractions that bring those suburban dollars flooding into the city? And just what else would JoCo be doing if they had them on their side instead?
Why would they have a reason to assume good intentions from the KC, MO government? The voters overwhelmingly disapprove of their boondoggles but they find a way to make it happen anyway. A billion dollar airport isn't wanted, well just start shutting down terminals and go out of the way to renovate (with tax payer money, of course) what's left open into idiotic configurations to create headaches for the citizens. Who's to say the bow-tie wearing sly-guy in city hall wouldn't have some disagreement with his counterparts in the evil JoCo and just decide to move a rail line to a dead end right at state line?
It's so easy being a freeloader.
That's a lot of words considering you didn't manage to work in a single fact. You don't seem to even understand what other people in this forum are saying, much less the reality of the bi-state situation.
Johnson Countians are being called freeloaders because they have convenient access to lots of regional attractions right across the state line, and yet they consistently refuse to help Jackson County build them, renovate them or maintain them.
And what an oblivious, elitist attitude it is when you try to compare the KCMO and JoCo tax bases as if it's apples to apples. Every metro area has a low-income inner city somewhere within it; usually inside the city limits of the primary city. This is a drain on the primary city's tax base, requiring them to seek other sources of revenue. Of course JoCo does just fine without an eTax; it's a wealthy county.
For all the overweening Kansas pride on this forum, how do you explain KCK? It has all the problems of KCMO, and almost none of the growth and promise (unless you include the heavily-subsidized exurban Village West area). Somehow, simply "being in Kansas" didn't do a whole lot of good for KCK.
I won't even respond to your airport comments, since they sound like they're coming from someone who draws all his conclusions from scanning headlines on Facebook. (And what on earth are you saying about moving a rail line to a dead end right at state line? I can't even get the reference.)
P.S. Kansas is a good state with tons of great people, terrible leadership, and one county that somehow got too high on the hog.
That's a lot of words considering you didn't manage to work in a single fact. You don't seem to even understand what other people in this forum are saying, much less the reality of the bi-state situation.
Johnson Countians are being called freeloaders because they have convenient access to lots of regional attractions right across the state line, and yet they consistently refuse to help Jackson County build them, renovate them or maintain them.
And what an oblivious, elitist attitude it is when you try to compare the KCMO and JoCo tax bases as if it's apples to apples. Every metro area has a low-income inner city somewhere within it; usually inside the city limits of the primary city. This is a drain on the primary city's tax base, requiring them to seek other sources of revenue. Of course JoCo does just fine without an eTax; it's a wealthy county.
For all the overweening Kansas pride on this forum, how do you explain KCK? It has all the problems of KCMO, and almost none of the growth and promise (unless you include the heavily-subsidized exurban Village West area). Somehow, simply "being in Kansas" didn't do a whole lot of good for KCK.
I won't even respond to your airport comments, since they sound like they're coming from someone who draws all his conclusions from scanning headlines on Facebook. (And what on earth are you saying about moving a rail line to a dead end right at state line? I can't even get the reference.)
P.S. Kansas is a good state with tons of great people, terrible leadership, and one county that somehow got too high on the hog.
Name the regional attractions that JoCo'ers don't pitch in for?
Perhaps if Jackson county can't afford them, then they shouldn't have them?
No elitism about it, you want to call Johnson Countianites a bunch of freeloaders but what? It doesn't work the other way around? You want Johnson county to subsidize what the county/city cannot afford on its own. Apparently ticket sales, entrance fees, parking fees, sales tax, etc. aren't enough for the great city of prosperity.
I'm not promoting Kansas pride, I'm pointing out the lazy scapegoating of KC, MO backers who think it's their way or the highway and whatever comes from the recesses of their brains are the greatest thing to hit mankind. Inner-KCK can't maintain any sort of great attraction so guess what, it doesn't have them. I suppose there's some talk of gentrification, maybe it'll help, maybe not. Don't know, not interested.
Really? So the airport is currently being used to its full potential?
The rail line comment was in regard to the quoted poster complaining about some regional transit system not being paid for, I mean partnered by, the Kansas side. It was a dig at the KC, MO city hall not being a good faith actor. Johnson County isn't high on any hog. It's a bunch of communities trying to make their way in life, just like any other. The difference between them and their counterparts to the east is, the west side isn't pointing the finger at the other for all their own shortcomings.
In short, maybe KC, MO and Jackson county should focus on shoring up its problems before deciding on investing in growth. With all this investing in potential, it doesn't seem to be leading anywhere for the destitute. All I hear is more whining about Johnson County not paying for it, never about how they can get the tax base to improve in their own city.
Jo County freeloads. Everybody knows it. What are all the ticket buying people in lees summit, Independence, raytown, grandview, liberty,Gladstone,parkville,North town, blue springs etc? Chopped liver? They buy tickets too on top of taxes.
Name the regional attractions that JoCo'ers don't pitch in for?
Perhaps if Jackson county can't afford them, then they shouldn't have them?
The ONLY regional attraction or project Kansas has ever pitched in on was Union Station, in 1999. So you can list every other attraction in KCMO, and JoCo refuses to participate, even though they've been invited to. The 900-pound gorilla is the Truman Sports Complex. And who said Jackson County can't afford them? Apparently it's working out fine, but it would be less of a burden on Jackson Countians if we treated the stadiums as a regional amenity (which they clearly are) instead of a county project.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emissary
No elitism about it, you want to call Johnson Countianites a bunch of freeloaders but what? It doesn't work the other way around? You want Johnson county to subsidize what the county/city cannot afford on its own. Apparently ticket sales, entrance fees, parking fees, sales tax, etc. aren't enough for the great city of prosperity.
Who are you mocking with this "city of prosperity" BS? No one is calling KCMO that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emissary
I'm not promoting Kansas pride, I'm pointing out the lazy scapegoating of KC, MO backers who think it's their way or the highway and whatever comes from the recesses of their brains are the greatest thing to hit mankind.
Everyone likes KCMO's attractions. People from Missouri, Kansas, Iowa, Nebraska, etc, etc. The tourism numbers and dollars bear that out. It's already been established that Johnson Countians visit KCMO's cultural amenities in droves, so there's no question about who likes them. It's about whether they want to visit the city on the same terms as tourists from Des Moines, or if they want to act like citizens of the greater metro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emissary
Really? So the airport is currently being used to its full potential?
Is this question intended to bolster some point of yours about a conspiracy to build a new terminal? You're not making any sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emissary
The rail line comment was in regard to the quoted poster complaining about some regional transit system not being paid for, I mean partnered by, the Kansas side. It was a dig at the KC, MO city hall not being a good faith actor.
If Kansas doesn't want to participate in a commuter rail system, fine. They'll just send a line to Lee's Summit and one to Independence. It would be nice to have a spoke running down I-35 to Olathe as well, but in the end that's no skin off Missouri's nose, because they won't suffer from Kansas having no commuter rail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emissary
Johnson County isn't high on any hog. It's a bunch of communities trying to make their way in life, just like any other.
This is what every thief says in his own defense. Except in this case, Kansas didn't poach Missouri companies because they "need" them. (That would be like admitting they were desperate or suffering.) It's because they believe they "deserve" them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emissary
In short, maybe KC, MO and Jackson county should focus on shoring up its problems before deciding on investing in growth. With all this investing in potential, it doesn't seem to be leading anywhere for the destitute. All I hear is more whining about Johnson County not paying for it, never about how they can get the tax base to improve in their own city.
These are simply two different conversations. A city cannot improve the lot of its citizens without investing in growth simultaneously. Because growth produces jobs, and jobs produce prosperity. It's like saying you should stop eating so you can focus on breathing. And if "all you hear" is whining about JoCo, you probably should expand your horizons a bit.
What is it with this persistent mention of "freeloading?"
First of all, unless there is some great JoCo perk of getting into the stadiums, the zoo, the Sprint Center, etc. for free or reduced cost that I am unaware of, then there is no freeloading going on. Besides, I thought using tax money for businesses is such a bad thing in JoCo, we wouldn't want KC, MO to touch that tainted money now would we? No, the freeloading is going on in KC, MO. A 1% tax on all earnings that keeps the city inhabitants from understanding the true cost to run their own city. Take a look at the south end of 435 during rush hour, tell me where the traffic is coming/going. Somehow that freeloading JoCo magically makes due without pulling money from it's non-residents paychecks. The toilets flow, the snow gets cleared, the trash gets removed, the cops drive around.
For all the talk about how crappy JoCo is, it's amazing it is still standing. Here's a good thought experiment, just what would happen to KC, MO without all those star attractions that bring those suburban dollars flooding into the city? And just what else would JoCo be doing if they had them on their side instead?
Why would they have a reason to assume good intentions from the KC, MO government? The voters overwhelmingly disapprove of their boondoggles but they find a way to make it happen anyway. A billion dollar airport isn't wanted, well just start shutting down terminals and go out of the way to renovate (with tax payer money, of course) what's left open into idiotic configurations to create headaches for the citizens. Who's to say the bow-tie wearing sly-guy in city hall wouldn't have some disagreement with his counterparts in the evil JoCo and just decide to move a rail line to a dead end right at state line?
It's so easy being a freeloader.
Kansas City is made of a two primary counties that make up the vast majority of the metro area. One of them gets a free ride because it just happens to be in Kansas.
I think most people (including myself) were generally okay with this. I mean, JoCo is basically taking advantage of geography and KCMO can get by without a lot of regional funding mechanisms in place (which nearly ever other mid sized metro has).
However, when JoCo (with lots of help from the state) started going above and beyond normal "competition" and literally started buying companies from KCMO in addition to the freeloading. I think that's when I personally was bothered along with many others. People from JoCo would say just what you said:
"KCMO should take care of itself". Let's see. You take KCMO's tax paying businesses and put them in Kansas (where they keep their KS taxes, so no gain for KS). What happens to the city's tax base that funds the zoo, museums, stadiums, transit etc?
And then you have the balls to say that JoCo pays the etax and the cost of admission to MO side venues and is the primary ticket buyer anyway as if KCMO is lucky to have the affluent JoCo crowd keeping MO side assets open. That is such an insult to anybody that lives in the main MO side counties who pay city, county and state taxes to fund regional attractions and still have to buy tickets too. And now more and more have to drive to Kansas to work because you poached their job from Downtown.
Newsflash. JoCo provides a very small part of the Etax to KCMO. The MO side suburbs alone pay far more to the KCMO etax than all of JoCo does. The vast majority of the Etax is actually paid by KCMO residents, a distant second is MO suburbanites not JoCo. So if you want to play the game of "take care of yourself". Try getting your own jobs from outside the metro area. That's what KCMO does. I would guess KCMO brings in more actual new jobs than the entire state of Kansas does. I know KCMO has been bringing in more new the region jobs than JoCo for several years now. It's been in the news many times.
As far as the rest of your rant...
The airport terminal needs to be replaced and KC is really only hurting itself by doing nothing with it. I really don't get what people are trying to preserve by letting KCI literally continue to deteriorate into a regional airport and a very crappy one at that. Not only is the country's biggest airline now basically skipping over KC when it wanted to make KC a focus city, the city is basically saying no to a 1-2 billion dollar economic impact project that is basically self funded. That's crazy. That's insane. KC does not have that much going on as far as construction and economic development compared to most major cities. Cities that don't build things tend to be the cities that are stagnant, slow growth and irreverent. There is a reason places like Denver and MSP and Dallas and Nashville and Charlotte are in a different group of cities today than KC. It takes KC ten years to build a 100 million dollar streetcar while other cities are building billion dollar expansions on light rail, topping out second or third convention hotels, new airports, pedestrian bridges etc. What kind of city does KC want to be? I think a city that wants to stop every single development that is proposed....unless it's in Kansas somewhere.
I mean, KCMO is about to commit economic suicide with this new incentives law. They really don't give out that many incentives in KCMO and nearly all of them are worthy of the incentives the city can give because they are for urban redevelopment. A developer wants a 20 year property tax break to redevelop a vacant urban building in KCMO and people come out of the woodwork to stop it. Or even some help to build parking for a plaza office tower or hotel. Another news flash. The Crossroads, and even the Plaza are NOT high growth areas. Shutting down what few proposals that do come up is probably not a great idea. Especially when developers can go to Kansas and build whatever they want, where ever they want for cheaper and get far more incentives with NO QUESTIONS ASKED.
Mayor James is a great Mayor and one of the nicest and most passionate people you will ever meet. I have personally met him and talked with him many times. I think he has been a great mayor for KCMO, but it's hard to be a great mayor in a city when you have so many people against your vision. (most people in KCMO city limits are status quo types and KCMO has to fight against both Topeka and Jeff City and of course Johnson County). Not an easy place to be a mayor.
I mean, KCMO is about to commit economic suicide with this new incentives law. They really don't give out that many incentives in KCMO and nearly all of them are worthy of the incentives the city can give because they are for urban redevelopment. A developer wants a 20 year property tax break to redevelop a vacant urban building in KCMO and people come out of the woodwork to stop it. Or even some help to build parking for a plaza office tower or hotel. Another news flash. The Crossroads, and even the Plaza are NOT high growth areas. Shutting down what few proposals that do come up is probably not a great idea. Especially when developers can go to Kansas and build whatever they want, where ever they want for cheaper and get far more incentives with NO QUESTIONS ASKED.
Good points all around. On the Plaza developments, that came down to the area plan passed by local residents working with the city and certain council members voting against the proposals due to a lack of conformity with that plan. I may not agree with the council's actions, but it is what it is. I'm still waiting for developers to build their approved projects on vacant parcels around the Plaza I drive by quite often on my commute.
If the 75 percent cap shuts up the opposition on the use of incentives in the city, I'm for it. I still think 100 percent should be allowed in certain cases, but if nothing is done then other people will start a petition drive to halt a project like with BNIM headquarters.
^ The problem is it won't shut them up. They will still complain and the city won't have those incentives when whey really need them to make an important projects happen such as keeping a large employer downtown. KC already can not remotely come close to competing with Kansas for incentives because the city does not collect that much in taxes to give back compared to a state and KC competes with Kansas when they compete with JoCo. This will only widen that gap.
I agree that they should develop all those empty parcels north of 47th. I can't believe all the empty land in the core of the plaza now. It looks terrible on google earth. Plaza people complain about everything though. They really don't propose anything all that large for the plaza area and it's always too dense for the area. I guess they want the plaza to just stay the same forever.
And like I said, areas like Crossroads are so far from being hot and no longer needing incentives. The Crossroads has come a long way but it's a very long way from a hot urban area. I swear, I wonder if people in KC ever visit other cities. Even the plaza doesn't have a ton going on, pretty modest growth, but as least it's an existing built out area. The Crossroads is still mostly parking lots and has very little activity outside of first fridays etc. It needs a few more years of city help before saying no to incentives or I think you will see development stop there. There is already very little going on there. Still waiting for that large apartment building at 20th and Wyandotte. That might be the project that really gets the Crossroads going. That's if it starts and if it's not killed or drastically downsized.
^ The problem is it won't shut them up. They will still complain and the city won't have those incentives when whey really need them to make an important projects happen such as keeping a large employer downtown. KC already can not remotely come close to competing with Kansas for incentives because the city does not collect that much in taxes to give back compared to a state and KC competes with Kansas when they compete with JoCo. This will only widen that gap.
I agree that they should develop all those empty parcels north of 47th. I can't believe all the empty land in the core of the plaza now. It looks terrible on google earth. Plaza people complain about everything though. They really don't propose anything all that large for the plaza area and it's always too dense for the area. I guess they want the plaza to just stay the same forever.
And like I said, areas like Crossroads are so far from being hot and no longer needing incentives. The Crossroads has come a long way but it's a very long way from a hot urban area. I swear, I wonder if people in KC ever visit other cities. Even the plaza doesn't have a ton going on, pretty modest growth, but as least it's an existing built out area. The Crossroads is still mostly parking lots and has very little activity outside of first fridays etc. It needs a few more years of city help before saying no to incentives or I think you will see development stop there. There is already very little going on there. Still waiting for that large apartment building at 20th and Wyandotte. That might be the project that really gets the Crossroads going. That's if it starts and if it's not killed or drastically downsized.
True. Let's see what the council decides on the issue. I'm not sure if it will pass or not. I think a valid critique is even with the development occurring in KC, not all council members are looking at the bigger, long term picture.
I live on the Plaza now and I'm pro-development. Yet, nimbyism is common in any city and the city council has to realize the greater good, i.e. more development, more residents, and more taxes generated is a good thing and an area can't be curtailed since someone might lose their view.
What hurts the Crossroads (West) is the new Marriot built on Baltimore not using any incentives for its construction. All the critics of incentives look at that project as being the reason the city shouldn't provide incentives to any projects in the 'developed' Crossroads. And the Crossroads comes to live on First Fridays and for an evening out due to the plethora of restaurants and bars. Outside of that it's a little sparse. But with Dave and other locals there pushing development of the area, I have no doubt more things will occur in the future and we're looking at a new hotel down there on Main that will be proposed at some point. Lastly, hopefully 20th and Wyandotte starts up again, but Corrigan Station once up and running will provide quite a bit of foot traffic and energy in the area.
True. Let's see what the council decides on the issue. I'm not sure if it will pass or not. I think a valid critique is even with the development occurring in KC, not all council members are looking at the bigger, long term picture.
I live on the Plaza now and I'm pro-development. Yet, nimbyism is common in any city and the city council has to realize the greater good, i.e. more development, more residents, and more taxes generated is a good thing and an area can't be curtailed since someone might lose their view.
What hurts the Crossroads (West) is the new Marriot built on Baltimore not using any incentives for its construction. All the critics of incentives look at that project as being the reason the city shouldn't provide incentives to any projects in the 'developed' Crossroads. And the Crossroads comes to live on First Fridays and for an evening out due to the plethora of restaurants and bars. Outside of that it's a little sparse. But with Dave and other locals there pushing development of the area, I have no doubt more things will occur in the future and we're looking at a new hotel down there on Main that will be proposed at some point. Lastly, hopefully 20th and Wyandotte starts up again, but Corrigan Station once up and running will provide quite a bit of foot traffic and energy in the area.
This thread needs to be split from the original topic, but thought I would post this here to continue this conversation.
I actually agree with the bowl concept and think the retail core of the plaza should be zoned with a limit of 4 stories, however, 4620 JC Nichols is not a core retail building, nor is it a building worthy of preserving. The council needs to have the balls to allow variances and then say no when needed. For example, saying no to tearing down the apartments at 46th and Broadway for large office building was a very good move. The Polsinelli building looks okay on the west end of the plaza, but something like that would have looked terrible on 46th and Broadway. Same with the city stopping the demolition of the Park Place Apartments, now a Marriott Hotel. But then you have things that make sense where you can get away from the plaza plan a little.
It's good the city approved 46th and walnut. That's a perfect infill site and six stories is the average height for the area.
Killing the 44th and Washing plan is stupid and only caving to NIMBY's. That area is totally ideal for that size of project. However, it may be a blessing. KC developers have plenty of other options. Develop the empty lots south of 46th which I think are zoned for up to 15 stories and start developing downtown. Good lord, there is still very little high density being proposed for downtown, crossroads and crown center. I really thought that Cordish starting a second tower would trigger some other similar proposals from other developers.
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