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I know this C-D sub is a bit of a bizarro-world because I have lived here 10 years now, and in all that time, and among all of the colleagues and friends live all over the metro (on both sides of the line) nobody seems to care at all. They go to events, places, shopping centers, and entertainment venues on both sides of the line without even thinking twice about it. I know on C-D boards, when everyone gets their "internet tough guy" hats on we actually waste time arguing about stuff like this. Outside of forums, this isn't nearly the problem. This city/suburb divide that goes in this forum is just absurd. If it were one or two threads...maybe. But EVERY thread in this board devolves into something like this, and it means we really can't have meaningful, thoughtful discussion, or even advice....because every single convo gets hijacked.
To the OP: I don't understand why you can't grasp that most cities have suburbs and that a lot of the cultural offerings are in the urban core. Yet the suburbs offer a quality of life that are desirable for a lot of people (personal preference, etc.). I would imagine very few people in Austin say: man, f*** those Round Rock jerks...let's just cut that part out of our metro. That doesn't make Round Rock not a key part of the Austin metro area, and Round Rock people go to Austin all the time to do stuff. I really think you don't know how a "metro area" works....it's a cooperation between cities and suburbs. Yes, the suburbs need the city....and the city needs the suburbs (they provide a place for people to live who don't prefer to live in more urban environments). I suggest you might want to examine this...and also examine the idea that people have - wait for it - different tastes and preferences! As such, the current model we see in metro areas across the entire country - where a central city has a symbiotic relationship with the suburbs (and even exburbs)...means that while you may not like the way other people in your metro prefer to live their lives, they are still part of the metro.
I love the city...I really enjoy going to the urban core. I also like where I live in Leawood. I like going to Parkville, and Lees Summit, and also out to Shawnee Mission Park...these are all parts of the metro and it is ridiculous to just say "well this half really isn't part of this city". I also really don't identify the KC as "Missouri" or "Kansas" - I live on the Kansas side but have absolutely no connection to Topeka and the rest of KS is very different from JOCO And WYCO (where my wife is from). When I lived on the Missouri side, I really didn't identify with Jeff City or the rest of Missouri. I just consider the whole city - both sides of the line - to be KC metro.
I could have quoted so much more from you, but I'll just stick with this.
Uninhabited wasteland? Really? Why don't you say something that's less obviously and demonstrably false? There were thousands and thousands of more jobs in downtown KC in the 70s-90s than there are now. And to say no one went downtown, even though the metro's primary convention and event spaces have been there all along? I just don't even know where to start in countering this mindless argument of yours. There's too much.
If anyone else on this forum agrees with you, and wants to see the evidence for Downtown KCMO being an economic engine, I will provide it. But I'm not going to waste my time if you're the only one.
Yea, no joke.
The River Market has always been popular. Like I mentioned before, millions of sq feet of office went up during that time along with hundreds of hotel rooms including the marriott. Crown Center might have actually been busier and more popular. They had a lot more free concerts many of which drew huge crowds. Quality Hill, Union Hill etc.
I mean the crossroads was still industrial and very few people lived downtown and there were tons of parking lots that are slowing going away so it was not great after hours and most of the area was pretty desolate outside the large office buildings, but to say it was an "Uninhabited wasteland" has to be most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Downtown KC has only gotten less busy.
There is almost no downtown daytime "bustle" like you have in most major cities in KC. Downtown KC today is VERY sleepy for a downtown of a larger city. There are more people out during the evenings jogging, dining etc, but it's feels kind of dead during the day compared to even the 90's.
Downtown is better today overall, but there were so many more people working down there and residential buildings don't create that kind of daytime bustle.
The River Market has always been popular. Like I mentioned before, millions of sq feet of office went up during that time along with hundreds of hotel rooms including the marriott. Crown Center might have actually been busier and more popular. They had a lot more free concerts many of which drew huge crowds. Quality Hill, Union Hill etc.
I mean the crossroads was still industrial and very few people lived downtown and there were tons of parking lots that are slowing going away so it was not great after hours and most of the area was pretty desolate outside the large office buildings, but to say it was an "Uninhabited wasteland" has to be most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Downtown KC has only gotten less busy.
There is almost no downtown daytime "bustle" like you have in most major cities in KC. Downtown KC today is VERY sleepy for a downtown of a larger city. There are more people out during the evenings jogging, dining etc, but it's feels kind of dead during the day compared to even the 90's.
Downtown is better today overall, but there were so many more people working down there and residential buildings don't create that kind of daytime bustle.
Have you been to downtown ATL? I feel it's the same way...most people work in Buckhead or outside of Fulton County now - in the suburban-style office parks. Generally, when you go downtown in a lot of cities (KC's size and sometimes even bigger) it means you are going to court - this is especially true in Atlanta, where it seems the only activity in downtown is related to the Federal Courthouse complex (where I was working) and the State and City/County courts. Most of the offices in downtowns are associated with law offices because of proximity to courts.
That said, in KC H&R Block has a lot of employee traffic out and about during lunchtimes, etc.
If you took Riverwalk out of downtown San Antonio, and moved it as far from downtown San Antonio as the Plaza is from downtown KC, how much random pedestrian traffic would you have? Probably not a lot. This is probably the best comparison I could estimate for KC on what street traffic should be considering a lot of businesses like to move out to suburbs due to lower rent/cheaper land (i.e. San Antonio has USAA way outside of their loop, KC has Farmers out in Olathe). When you have an office with 2,500 employees, it's cheaper to rent a big office park out in Olathe rather than build something that would accommodate that footprint downtown.
I didn't say the Plaza is ghetto. I said that Winstead's near the Plaza is ghetto.
LOL.
My husband, baby and I ate at that Winstead's today after checking out the Roman Luxury exhibit at the Nelson and before going to Deanna Rose Children's Farmstead and stopping off at Half-Price Books.
Have you been to downtown ATL? I feel it's the same way...most people work in Buckhead or outside of Fulton County now - in the suburban-style office parks. Generally, when you go downtown in a lot of cities (KC's size and sometimes even bigger) it means you are going to court - this is especially true in Atlanta, where it seems the only activity in downtown is related to the Federal Courthouse complex (where I was working) and the State and City/County courts. Most of the offices in downtowns are associated with law offices because of proximity to courts.
That said, in KC H&R Block has a lot of employee traffic out and about during lunchtimes, etc.
If you took Riverwalk out of downtown San Antonio, and moved it as far from downtown San Antonio as the Plaza is from downtown KC, how much random pedestrian traffic would you have? Probably not a lot. This is probably the best comparison I could estimate for KC on what street traffic should be considering a lot of businesses like to move out to suburbs due to lower rent/cheaper land (i.e. San Antonio has USAA way outside of their loop, KC has Farmers out in Olathe). When you have an office with 2,500 employees, it's cheaper to rent a big office park out in Olathe rather than build something that would accommodate that footprint downtown.
I have been to every downtown in the country many times over including Atlanta . Yes, you are right about Downtown Atlanta. Midtown (and even Buckhead) is much more vibrant than Downtown. But during the day it's still busy because there are so many office towers and hotels there. The aquarium, cnn and coke also keep tourists flowing downtown pretty well. So even the core of downtown Atlanta is very busy and congested during the day where KC's downtown is extremely quiet. Their streetcar is just silly though. It winds around a bunch of turns and goes nowhere. They put up a ferris wheel near the streetcar that has views of parking garages. Every city has its problems .
Funny you bring up San Antonio. I love that city because it's so unique, but they have almost no downtown jobs and have built very little office space in decades. It's also the only city in the country that lost more downtown jobs than Kansas city did over the last ten years (based on percent, I think KC actually lost more jobs). So I'm not sure you wan to compare KC's downtown jobs to SA. It's amazing how little the river walk has done for jobs. But they make up for it with hotels and tourists which keep Downtown SA bustling and vibrant all day long and far into the late evening. I think companies don't want to fight over parking and traffic with the hotels and tourists in SA so they stay away from Downtown. KC doesn't have that problem.
I never thought KC should have a huge downtown with 300,000 jobs or something. Just a few more towers would do wonders and just keeping all the companies that Kansas has poached in the last ten yeas alone would bring back 4000-6000 jobs. That's a lot of employees for a downtown the size of KC's and they could all still be downtown patronizing the P&L district, streetcar etc. KC should have about 120-150k people working downtown for the size of the city. That's the huge area going all the way to Crown Center. There used to be well over 100k jobs in that area. I think it's about 50-60k today.
I could have quoted so much more from you, but I'll just stick with this.
Uninhabited wasteland? Really? Why don't you say something that's less obviously and demonstrably false? There were thousands and thousands of more jobs in downtown KC in the 70s-90s than there are now. And to say no one went downtown, even though the metro's primary convention and event spaces have been there all along? I just don't even know where to start in countering this mindless argument of yours. There's too much.
If anyone else on this forum agrees with you, and wants to see the evidence for Downtown KCMO being an economic engine, I will provide it. But I'm not going to waste my time if you're the only one.
I don't care what you do or don't do. I skim over your posts; I do not read them in their entirety. Waste of time.
My husband, baby and I ate at that Winstead's today after checking out the Roman Luxury exhibit at the Nelson and before going to Deanna Rose Children's Farmstead and stopping off at Half-Price Books.
We're so ghetto.
You're not ghetto. That particular store is. Am I supposed to be impressed that you went to the Nelson and to Deanna Rose? Been to both. That Winstead's wouldn't be a part of my trip, though.
Outside of forums, this isn't nearly the problem. This city/suburb divide that goes in this forum is just absurd. If it were one or two threads...maybe. But EVERY thread in this board devolves into something like this, and it means we really can't have meaningful, thoughtful discussion, or even advice....because every single convo gets hijacked.
People don't tend to talk about controversial issues when they get together to hang out. This isn't a made-up problem. It's real, because it has a real effect on the future of our community. How could you argue otherwise, when a core city is being drained of its employment base and tax base?
On another note, I couldn't agree more with your statements about how a city needs its suburbs and the suburbs need its city. Here's why this flame war is not simply "he-said-she-said". Ready?
I, and many other KCMO-boosters on this forum, are "pro metro". We want the whole metro to work, which means JoCo should be able to thrive the same way Lee's Summit and Blue Springs and Liberty thrive. We don't like the "JoCo attitude" but we're 100% fine with JoCo existing and doing its particular thing. Doesn't mean we would ever choose to live there, but that doesn't matter.
JoCo boosters, on the other hand, have some kind of vendetta against KCMO's very existence. They wouldn't bat an eye if every business and cultural attraction relocated to JoCo, and KCMO fell into an enormous sinkhole. And this is not just related to the attitudes expressed in flame wars like this. It's because they just hate the city itself for some reason. Sure, they like the Chiefs, Royals, Symphony, Zoo, Plaza, Westport, P&L, Bartle Hall, Science City, etc, but they hate the fact that they have to go to Missouri to enjoy these things. How much better it would be if all this stuff were located in some massive retail power center at 250th and Metcalf!
Well, a girl can dream, amirite?
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. Yes, you are right about Downtown Atlanta. Midtown (and even Buckhead) is much more vibrant than Downtown. But during the day it's still busy because there are so many office towers and hotels there. The aquarium, cnn and coke also keep tourists flowing downtown pretty well. So even the core of downtown Atlanta is very busy and congested during the day where KC's downtown is extremely quiet. Their streetcar is just silly though. It winds around a bunch of turns and goes nowhere. They put up a ferris wheel near the streetcar that has views of parking garages. Every city has its problems 
