U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Missouri > Kansas City
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 10-16-2016, 08:22 AM
 
1,298 posts, read 982,763 times
Reputation: 658

Advertisements



2040 is probably wildly optimistic for a vision like this. But hey... my fantasy, my timeline.

This is based on my general wishlist for Downtown KCMO, primarily in regard to parks and transit:
  1. Redesignate all of I-670 as I-70, and cap it from Wyandotte to Grand with a Boulevard-style park (similar to Ward Parkway.)
  2. Remove the entire "west loop" and "north loop" stretches of I-70 and I-35, including that in the West Bottoms. Even at rush hour, these stretches are not particularly busy.
  3. Replace these demolished freeways with a linear park system: parks, parkways and recreation trails. Allow for limited vehicular traffic, but prioritize for pedestrians, bicycles and mass transit.
  4. Expand the Main Street Streetcar line south to the Plaza / UMKC, and north to Isle of Capri Casino / Downtown NKC.
  5. Add two more Streetcar lines, one from downtown KCK, through downtown's convention district, to the Old Northeast Neighborhood. A second from Boulevard Brewery, to Union Station, to 18th & Vine.
  6. Build a Pedestrian/Transit bridge over the Missouri River, extending from Delaware Street to Harlem, to the Downtown Aiport. Incentivize riverfront development (parks, condos, entertainment) in Old Harlem, with a nod to its very interesting past.
  7. Add three bona fide Bus Rapid Transit lines. A "Broadway to KCI Express" Running from the Plaza to the Airport, with minimal stops. An "East Side Line" from the River Market to Swope Park, via Grand / Prospect. And a "Midtown Crosstown" running the length of 31st Street within city limits. (It could even go to Downtown Overland Park if Kansas will play ball.)
  8. Add more linear parks around the perimeter of Downtown proper, including the East Side. Go on a road diate, creating "complete streets" with protected bike lanes, widened sidewalks and more trees to create a walkable/bikeable network within and between neighborhoods.
  9. Move the Royals into a new stadium perched on the bluff next to Quality Hill, where I-35 used to be. The land is already publicly owned and available, and the site will provide an amazing vantage point for fans to view the Skyline, the River, and the West Bottoms.
  10. Make the "Pile of Debris Casino" (aka Isle of Capri Casino) true to its name, and demolish it. Move the Chiefs into a new stadium in that spot. Yes, I think their current location is perfectly fine for an NFL stadium, but when it does come time to let Arrowhead Stadium go (*sniff) the casino location would be spot-on. It could hug the river, benefit from the extended Streetcar line and great Interstate access, surface parking could be plentiful, and it could raise the profile of the city's riverfront recreation opportunities. If this spot doesn't work out, Old Harlem (see #6) with the right transit connections, would be another very promising site.

That's it! What's on your list?

P.S. If you like this map, and know someone who could use some map design work, please PM me. Thanks!

P.P.S. If the animated GIF above isn't working for you, here's a JPEG of the final vision:



Last edited by rwiksell; 10-16-2016 at 09:17 AM..
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-16-2016, 08:55 AM
 
376 posts, read 429,412 times
Reputation: 350
I'll comment later, but I'm still laughing at "Pile of Debris." Well played.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-16-2016, 09:03 AM
 
1,298 posts, read 982,763 times
Reputation: 658
Quote:
Originally Posted by pacificwhim View Post
I'll comment later, but I'm still laughing at "Pile of Debris." Well played.
I wish I could claim that one.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-16-2016, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,488,746 times
Reputation: 5405
This is fantastic. Very nicely done. You have taken most of my ideas (not saying you stole them, just the things I have been preaching about for years that I would like to see) and put them into a nice graphic.

The main difference from your plan and mine is your placement of the stadiums. The baseball stadium absolutely should be downtown, I do agree with that. But it has to be in a area where transit works but at the same time, you can still easily drive (parking problems would kill attendance). It also can't be too close to the CBD because it will create too much parking demand and fill the CBD with parking lots and people would tear down usable buildings for surface parking lots for baseball crowds because land would be more valuable for parking than for buildings.

If you take out the west loop, that would free up some land, but not enough. You would have to also remove the FBI building and there would still be some pretty huge obstacles to overcome, mainly parking and transit access. Plus, the stadium in that location would be hemmed up against the bluffs marking it only accessible from a couple of sides. That location would also put way too much stress on a mainly residential area. It's a great idea, I just don't think it would ever work there logistically. It has a much better chance of happening the the north loop (8th and Main area).

A stadium placed in the crossroads district would be easily accessed from all directions, and all areas of Downtown (Loop, Crown Center etc so you could walk to it from a very large area of hotels etc). You would be close to many transit options. Plus you are going to need some parking and you could place some parking garages east of the the stadium without killing the urban fabric of the area. Plus it's just a more realistic idea (but still a pipe dream) as far as assembling the land etc.

This is what I'm talking about:



As far as the football stadium. I honestly think the massive surface parking lots of Arrowhead and the tailgating experience there is what makes Arrowhead so amazing and unique and is the one thing that keeps the fans coming back even if the Chiefs suck. If you put the stadium downtown and made everybody fend for themselves for parking, I actually think that could potentially ruin the entire Chiefs game day experience and hurt attendance greatly. Plus, 80,000 seat football stadiums just don't belong in downtown areas. They do much more harm than good to the urban fabric and vibrancy of a city. Keep arrowhead where it is, even if they build a new stadium some day.

Having said that, the Isle of Crap has to go. An NFL stadium would never fit where the casino is so that's not really even on option. It might have fit in Bearkley Park, but it won't now that it's being develped. However that would be a great location for a full size aquarium. KC could build a true world class aquarium and it could be attraction that pulls people to the riverfront.

You don't have to do this, but it would be cool to see the graphics with football stadium replaced with an aquarium and the baseball stadium moved to 20th and Oak just north of the tracks. Basically right where you have a streetcar stop. (you could also add a transit stop to the commuter tracks, although people could easily walk from union station.

Your greenspace is great, however, I would run the streetcar track to downtown KCK via the new greenway corridor where I-70 was rather than the 12th/670 industrial corridor. I think that could generate a LOT of interest in the riverfront/Kaw point as well as downtown KCK. Plus if you take the interstate off the Lewis and Clark viaduct, you would have existing bridges in place to use for the streetcar and elevated park/bike/pedestrian greenway. So maybe the KC Museum route could go north on Broadway and then west on 6th to head over the Lewis and Clark bridge to KCK? I like the idea of keeping the route through downtown because it provides a circulation loop route for Downtown as the same time.


Other minor changes I would make is to route the red streetcar line across a new pedestrian bridge but closer to Heart of America to it goes into NKC and the north side of river could also be park land. The area just east of the Broadway bridge north of the river (Harlem) would be redeveloped into a dense mixed use district. The orange BRT line you have is perfect for Downtown airport, Briarcliff all the way to KCI. However, I would run it straight up Broadway and across the new Broadway Bridge using HOV lanes across the new bridge.

Other small ideas:

Penn Valley Park needs an attraction. As silly as this may sound, but a large "wheel" in Penn Valley park would be pretty amazing placed on one of the higher points. Many cities have them now and they are very popular. Even London has one. I think it would be a really neat attraction for the park.

These are all just things I would do. Please don't think I don't like your plans, I do, a LOT. I'm just trying to add some ideas that I think would make it better and possibly more doable. So it would be cool to create a graphic that incorporates my changes. Maybe some others will chime in with their ideas. This could be something that could be taken to the city for their long term planning if the plans were reasonable and well though out.

Thanks for making this. Very cool!

Last edited by kcmo; 10-16-2016 at 12:36 PM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-16-2016, 09:48 PM
 
9,082 posts, read 3,697,658 times
Reputation: 13377
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
Penn Valley Park needs an attraction. As silly as this may sound, but a large "wheel" in Penn Valley park would be pretty amazing placed on one of the higher points.
can it be in the shape of a rotisserie? With a chicken painted on the rides?

We need it to say distinctively BBQ and people can say they went to ride the chickens
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-17-2016, 07:02 AM
 
1,298 posts, read 982,763 times
Reputation: 658
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
This is fantastic. Very nicely done. You have taken most of my ideas (not saying you stole them, just the things I have been preaching about for years that I would like to see) and put them into a nice graphic.
Thanks! I've drawn a lot of inspiration from your ideas here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
The main difference from your plan and mine is your placement of the stadiums. The baseball stadium absolutely should be downtown, I do agree with that. But it has to be in a area where transit works but at the same time, you can still easily drive (parking problems would kill attendance). It also can't be too close to the CBD because it will create too much parking demand and fill the CBD with parking lots and people would tear down usable buildings for surface parking lots for baseball crowds because land would be more valuable for parking than for buildings.

If you take out the west loop, that would free up some land, but not enough. You would have to also remove the FBI building and there would still be some pretty huge obstacles to overcome, mainly parking and transit access. Plus, the stadium in that location would be hemmed up against the bluffs marking it only accessible from a couple of sides. That location would also put way too much stress on a mainly residential area. It's a great idea, I just don't think it would ever work there logistically. It has a much better chance of happening the the north loop (8th and Main area).

A stadium placed in the crossroads district would be easily accessed from all directions, and all areas of Downtown (Loop, Crown Center etc so you could walk to it from a very large area of hotels etc). You would be close to many transit options. Plus you are going to need some parking and you could place some parking garages east of the the stadium without killing the urban fabric of the area. Plus it's just a more realistic idea (but still a pipe dream) as far as assembling the land etc.
I do worry a little about the parking situation, in the location I've indicated. And maybe this is a cop-out (both for the Royals and Chiefs locations) but I fully expect that by the year 2040, private car ownership will have plummeted, and at least half the people currently driving to games now will be ride-sharing, ubering, or (in all likelihood) taking an autonomous vehicle that can park anywhere. Or better yet, can earn money by giving other people rides while you're at the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
As far as the football stadium. I honestly think the massive surface parking lots of Arrowhead and the tailgating experience there is what makes Arrowhead so amazing and unique and is the one thing that keeps the fans coming back even if the Chiefs suck. If you put the stadium downtown and made everybody fend for themselves for parking, I actually think that could potentially ruin the entire Chiefs game day experience and hurt attendance greatly. Plus, 80,000 seat football stadiums just don't belong in downtown areas. They do much more harm than good to the urban fabric and vibrancy of a city. Keep arrowhead where it is, even if they build a new stadium some day.

Having said that, the Isle of Crap has to go. An NFL stadium would never fit where the casino is so that's not really even on option. It might have fit in Bearkley Park, but it won't now that it's being develped. However that would be a great location for a full size aquarium. KC could build a true world class aquarium and it could be attraction that pulls people to the riverfront.
See my comment above about the volume of need for parking. However, I think this location still affords ample space for tailgating. Those who are still driving their private vehicles can park in lots which can replace industry to the south and east, which will probably be outmoded 24 years from now. The tailgating experience can also bleed into Berkeley Park (esp for those not driving themselves) which would handle the festivities quite nicely, I think. Either way, not only could the tailgating culture continue, it would be far more scenic right alongside the river like that, with the suspension bridge looming above and the skyline in the backdrop. It would certainly make for better B-roll shots for the networks.

Also, the stadium would most certainly fit in this spot. I made sure of that before I chose it.

I'm all for an aquarium in this area though. It might be a good pairing with the stadium. Since an aquarium is a year-round attraction, it could justify the transit line there, and would keep that site from being dead most days of the year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
You don't have to do this, but it would be cool to see the graphics with football stadium replaced with an aquarium and the baseball stadium moved to 20th and Oak just north of the tracks. Basically right where you have a streetcar stop. (you could also add a transit stop to the commuter tracks, although people could easily walk from union station.

Your greenspace is great, however, I would run the streetcar track to downtown KCK via the new greenway corridor where I-70 was rather than the 12th/670 industrial corridor. I think that could generate a LOT of interest in the riverfront/Kaw point as well as downtown KCK. Plus if you take the interstate off the Lewis and Clark viaduct, you would have existing bridges in place to use for the streetcar and elevated park/bike/pedestrian greenway. So maybe the KC Museum route could go north on Broadway and then west on 6th to head over the Lewis and Clark bridge to KCK? I like the idea of keeping the route through downtown because it provides a circulation loop route for Downtown as the same time.
I'm open to trying some alternatives.

Although I think the suggested alignment of the east-west Streetcar is good, since it goes through the heart of a (presumably) revitalized West Bottoms neighborhood. I would not plan to keep the raised viaduct that is currently I-70, because it would require a lot of maintenance dollars to keep up, and it's just way way too much for bike and transit purposes, and separated from all pedestrian activity in the area. I would demolish it, and get rid of the visual clutter between West Bottoms and the river.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
Other minor changes I would make is to route the red streetcar line across a new pedestrian bridge but closer to Heart of America to it goes into NKC and the north side of river could also be park land. The area just east of the Broadway bridge north of the river (Harlem) would be redeveloped into a dense mixed use district. The orange BRT line you have is perfect for Downtown airport, Briarcliff all the way to KCI. However, I would run it straight up Broadway and across the new Broadway Bridge using HOV lanes across the new bridge.

Other small ideas:

Penn Valley Park needs an attraction. As silly as this may sound, but a large "wheel" in Penn Valley park would be pretty amazing placed on one of the higher points. Many cities have them now and they are very popular. Even London has one. I think it would be a really neat attraction for the park.

These are all just things I would do. Please don't think I don't like your plans, I do, a LOT. I'm just trying to add some ideas that I think would make it better and possibly more doable. So it would be cool to create a graphic that incorporates my changes. Maybe some others will chime in with their ideas. This could be something that could be taken to the city for their long term planning if the plans were reasonable and well though out.

Thanks for making this. Very cool!
I'm going to think about your suggestions. All good ideas. Thanks!

Last edited by rwiksell; 10-17-2016 at 08:20 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-23-2016, 08:34 AM
 
1,298 posts, read 982,763 times
Reputation: 658
OK, here's my "alternate version", featuring:

-A new Chiefs stadium on the north side of the river, served by the Streetcar's "Main" Line. Many industrial railroad tracks would need to be removed, but I'm assuming this kind of thing will happen a lot by the year 2040.

-A completely redeveloped "Old Harlem" to complement the Chiefs (infilling and expanding the historic street grid with Condos, Office Space & Retail, with a strong connection to the river, and a nod to the history of the Harlem neighborhood.)

-A world-class riverside aquarium, developed in concert with a new riverfront park. This would give the Old Harlem development a year-round attraction.

-A new Royals stadium taking the place of Washington Park, as a companion piece to Union Station, Liberty Memorial and Crown Center. Although this would be a challenging spot today, I believe it's entirely achievable 20 years from now.

All this presumes what I mentioned in the above comment, that the need for parking in the year 2040 will be drastically reduced. I believe the entire Tailgating culture of the Chiefs can be maintained in surrounding riverside parkland, and an adjoining "festival plaza" designed purely for that purpose.

Your move, kcmo.

Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2016, 07:39 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,488,746 times
Reputation: 5405
Thanks for the map!

Very interesting location for Arrowhead. I like it a lot and never thought about it there. I think you are right, there is a good possibility of redevelopment of the railyard there in the next 20 years. As intermodal facilities develop in places like Gardner and Belton, the railroads will start selling off these older landlocked facilities and the ground below them becomes more valuable. I would think NKC would love to have a stadium there. It's just far enough away to help downtown NKC, but not interfere with it. It would also help Harrahs Casino. Another NKC location that might work is I-35 and Armour. It's a bit further away, but still much closer to the city (and KCI etc) than the TSC. NKC has already helped tear down a lot of old industry and grain elevators there as they try to redevelop it. I'm actually quite surprised something major has not already been proposed there. Although where you have it would work much better with transit and people could walk across a pedestrian bridge over the river to the stadium from downtown hotels, parking garages etc.

I honesty still think the current location of Arrowhead and all the existing infrastructure is about as good as it gets and it would be very difficult to repurpose all that land, the roads, parking lots etc if both stadiums moved, but if you did need to move the stadiums, I think this might be the best location I have seen proposed yet. Close to downtown, but out of way so it won't harm urban development. That is one location I would leave the TSC for. Turn the TSC into a light industrial park. It would be a good spot for a bunch of huge distribution centers.

I have always liked the idea of a baseball stadium at Washington Square Park. However, that location does have a space challenge. It was proposed as a location for a "boutique" stadium for the Royals back when the downtown stadium debate was going on. Meaning it was to be a small stadium by MLB standards. I think they said it would seat under 30k, which I don't think would make a lot of economic sense for the team. However, since then, the Twins built a MLB sized stadium on a very small urban footprint very similar in size to Washington Sq Park. So a 37k seat park could be done there I think. If so, it would be a great location for sure.

I really like the parkland along both sides of the river, the redevelopment of the Harlem area and the re-purposing of the Interstate 70 / Lewis and Clark Viaduct into a Greenway Park. KC desperately needs to do something like that.

Last edited by kcmo; 10-25-2016 at 07:55 PM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-26-2016, 02:59 PM
 
1,298 posts, read 982,763 times
Reputation: 658
Thanks for the feedback. The stadium locations are fun, but the thing that would blow my mind would be the redeveloped Harlem neighborhood. Wouldn't you love to work on that project? Imagine how amazing it could be to start from scratch and build up a full-featured walkable urban neighborhood, with incredible views across the river, a world-class aquarium and an NFL stadium next door.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-28-2016, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,488,746 times
Reputation: 5405
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwiksell View Post
Thanks for the feedback. The stadium locations are fun, but the thing that would blow my mind would be the redeveloped Harlem neighborhood. Wouldn't you love to work on that project? Imagine how amazing it could be to start from scratch and build up a full-featured walkable urban neighborhood, with incredible views across the river, a world-class aquarium and an NFL stadium next door.
Yes. Again, I wouldn't move Arrowhead. Football stadiums are just terrible things to have near downtowns. They do much more harm than good and KC already has the perfect location along with all the necessary infrastructure. Building huge football stadium downtown that is rarely used and will put serious stress on parking and roads while creating a huge blight problem by vacating the TSC is just not ideal.

Baseball is a totally different story. If placed in a proper location (typically on the edge of the downtown), they can actually add lot of value. They can also do more harm than than good as well if placed in the wrong location where they create too much demand for parking and break up the urban fabric of the city too much with their huge footprint. I think somewhere along the RR tracks between Union Station and 71 would be perfect for a large baseball stadium.

The Riverfront has taken forever to get started, but if it finally starts to build out, I think you will see some interest in Harlem sooner than later. The River Market will be built out in ten years. Columbus Park will continue to see interest, but it's mostly single family so it will likely see only lower density new construction there. Developers have probably already started eyeing properties in Harlem as the next location for new construction similar to what has replaced all the rail yards in the River Market. One reason it has not happened already is the city is just not building up the riverfront as a recreational destination. Had the city built trail levees, a pedestrian bridge across the river etc, I think Harlem would already be redeveloping.

Bottom line is that all of this new residential construction is going to slow, if not come to a grinding halt, if more jobs don't start coming downtown. At the rate Downtown KC is going, there will only be 20,000 jobs downtown in 2040. That's not going to get it done.

Hopefully by 2040, there are some new office towers and a much larger corporate presence downtown. The East Village / East side of the loop would be perfect for a large corporate campus as well. In order to sustain the current residential development and not have a bubble burst just a few years into the boom, KC needs to get more jobs downtown. Otherwise, demand will slow greatly and rent prices will rise too fast for the area to sustain as well.

So long as metro KC (mostly fueled by Kansas) continues to play corporate welfare and give companies excessive incentives to build in suburban greenfields, downtown is out of luck though and the economy of the entire metro will continue to grow very slow compared to most cities in the country. So something has to change in KC or KC will be passed by a dozen other cities by 2040.

Last edited by kcmo; 10-28-2016 at 11:58 AM..
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Missouri > Kansas City
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top