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Besides, since when do the SUBURBS influence the city? You're the same guy who said that Indiana is Southern lite because it borders Louisville yet claim that Northern Kentucky is Southern because it borders a Northern city. Ooooooookay
It's not a question of one part of the metro influencing the other. It's about recognizing that the entire metro is in a "border zone". If you have suburbs at one end which are culturally more southern than suburbs at the other end, that's a good indicator.
It's not a question of one part of the metro influencing the other. It's about recognizing that the entire metro is in a "border zone". If you have suburbs at one end which are culturally more southern than suburbs at the other end, that's a good indicator.
Again, can you show me where Cincinnati has been labeled as a Southern city? I have honestly never seen that. I can't help but think you have double standards. Indiana being more Southern because of a big Kentucky city makes sense. A big Ohio city being more Southern because of small suburbs is what doesn't make much sense to me. Wouldn't that make Northern Kentucky more Midwestern?
What are the Southern culture aspects of Cincinnati?
Again, can you show me where Cincinnati has been labeled as a Southern city? I have honestly never seen that. I can't help but think you have double standards. Indiana being more Southern because of a big Kentucky city makes sense. A big Ohio city being more Southern because of small suburbs is what doesn't make much sense to me. Wouldn't that make Northern Kentucky more Midwestern?
What are the Southern culture aspects of Cincinnati?
There are not many. Just like St. Louis doesn't have many anymore (once was considered a border, southern city in the 1800s) but there are still some slight traces left but not enough to label it in the transition zone. As I said about St. Louis before it's maybe 10-15 percent southern influence at the most. Not enough to put it in the transition zone that starts south of St. Louis but still has some traces of it left. I don't know how to explain it exactly from living there though but it's just there.
Cinci I would put it the same way. Some influence but not enough to put it in the transition zone. Very far northern Kentucky near Cinci isn't southern, it's Midwestern. I would say just below far northern Kentucky and Cinci metro there is a little bit of transition zone that starts outside of the metro area and then becomes dominantly southern around Lexington.
In Missouri south of St. Louis there too is also a transition zone but it's more gradual. It starts out very gradual in Jefferson county and then when you get around Cherokee Pass in Madison county it's pretty much becomes dominantly southern.
if you're using far eastern MO along the MS river, there really is no transition zone. It goes from very Midwest/lower Midwest to southern quick with little transition zone. St. Gen, Perry county and the northern parts of Cape Girardeau county are Midwestern but then it becomes southern very quickly around Jackson in the middle of the county. Cape Girardeau due to various influences isn't fully southern though but rural parts of Cape Girardeau county are pretty southern.
The south line is a bit closer to Cinci though. Probably only 60 miles to the south the transition zone ends and it becomes mainly southern. In St. Louis the line is about 80 miles due south from where the transition zone ends and the dominate southern line begins.
There are not many. Just like St. Louis doesn't have many anymore (once was considered a border, southern city in the 1800s) but there are still some slight traces left but not enough to label it in the transition zone. As I said about St. Louis before it's maybe 10-15 percent southern influence at the most. Not enough to put it in the transition zone that starts south of St. Louis but still has some traces of it left. I don't know how to explain it exactly from living there though but it's just there.
Cinci I would put it the same way. Some influence but not enough to put it in the transition zone. Very far northern Kentucky near Cinci isn't southern, it's Midwestern. I would say just below far northern Kentucky and Cinci metro there is a little bit of transition zone that starts outside of the metro area and then becomes dominantly southern around Lexington.
In Missouri south of St. Louis there too is also a transition zone but it's more gradual. It starts out very gradual in Jefferson county and then when you get around Cherokee Pass in Madison county it's pretty much becomes dominantly southern.
if you're using far eastern MO along the MS river, there really is no transition zone. It goes from very Midwest/lower Midwest to southern quick with little transition zone. St. Gen, Perry county and the northern parts of Cape Girardeau county are Midwestern but then it becomes southern very quickly around Jackson in the middle of the county. Cape Girardeau due to various influences isn't fully southern though but rural parts of Cape Girardeau county are pretty southern.
The south line is a bit closer to Cinci though. Probably only 60 miles to the south the transition zone ends and it becomes mainly southern. In St. Louis the line is about 80 miles due south from where the transition zone ends and the dominate southern line begins.
I know Cincinnati had some Appalachian influences and I won't deny it. Just like Indy. However I think that in this day and age they have been absorbed and didn't affect the dominant culture much. If Louisville is diet Southern I can't see how Cincinnati or Indianapolis are remotely Southern. Like you said 10-15% if that.
Missouri has a larger area of Southern influence. I mean it goes up to Kansas City! Little Dixie has a lot of Southern influence. Neither Indiana nor Ohio have a Little Dixie equivalent or such a large area of their state where Southern identity survives. You can be in Central Missouri and find more Southern culture than you would in Central Ohio or Indiana. Also to add to this not one city in Ohio or Indiana is known for barbecue. St. Louis and Kansas City both are. And then KC is also known for jazz. Jazz and barbecue are more Missouri than they are Ohio or Indiana. So no neither of those Midwest states are near as Southern as Missouri. Not even close. Their extreme Southern regions are slightly influenced and even then probably less than Kansas City.
Heck dialect maps alone show that 1)no part of Ohio has a Southern accent and 2)only a very small part of Indiana has one (the Hoosier Apex). Compare that to Missouri where like 25% of the state is labeled as Southern speaking.
I know Cincinnati had some Appalachian influences and I won't deny it. Just like Indy. However I think that in this day and age they have been absorbed and didn't affect the dominant culture much. If Louisville is diet Southern I can't see how Cincinnati or Indianapolis are remotely Southern. Like you said 10-15% if that.
Missouri has a larger area of Southern influence. I mean it goes up to Kansas City! Little Dixie has a lot of Southern influence. Neither Indiana nor Ohio have a Little Dixie equivalent or such a large area of their state where Southern identity survives. You can be in Central Missouri and find more Southern culture than you would in Central Ohio or Indiana. Also to add to this not one city in Ohio or Indiana is known for barbecue. St. Louis and Kansas City both are. And then KC is also known for jazz. Jazz and barbecue are more Missouri than they are Ohio or Indiana. So no neither of those Midwest states are near as Southern as Missouri. Not even close. Their extreme Southern regions are slightly influenced and even then probably less than Kansas City.
Heck dialect maps alone show that 1)no part of Ohio has a Southern accent and 2)only a very small part of Indiana has one (the Hoosier Apex). Compare that to Missouri where like 25% of the state is labeled as Southern speaking.
I pretty much have to agree. Indy doesn't really have any southern influence. It's a bit too far north. Cinci has more southern influence than Indy. Again Missouri was a slave state and at one time had southern culture in a majority of the state. Ohio, Indiana and Kansas never had that.
Little Dixie area is Midwestern today but in pockets you will find a good amount of southern influence maybe 40 percent in some of the towns but it still leans more Midwestern today. Again Missouri has connections tying it with the south and parts of the state are still part of the south. Ohio and Indiana don't have this. They were not a slave state and were not claimed by the Confederacy.
However, Missouri overall is more conservative than the entire nation when combined together. When you think about it, a liberal candidate has not "won" Missouri since 1976. I say this because in 1992 and 1996 Perrot took away a lot of votes from Bush and Dole. Bush would have easily won in Missouri in 1992 if it wasn't for Perrot taking away all those votes.
Hillary won the popular vote in the nation but got smashed in Missouri.
I think Florida would be a better fit for this. The state is more moderate than Missouri and is literally split right in the middle between conservative and liberal. Trump won FL by about 2 points, Trump won Missouri by almost 19 points. If the democraps didn't have a toxic candidate like Hillary, Trump would have lost Florida by a couple points. The demographics of this state keep changing as well as people from the northeast keep flooding here and more Hispanics move here.
I'll allow your point but was talking culture more than politics.
On that score, I'd argue that Florida has very little Western anything, and its Northeastern influence consists mainly of the states the people now living in South Florida (not of Hispanic background) came from rather than anything culturally significant.
I'll allow your point but was talking culture more than politics.
On that score, I'd argue that Florida has very little Western anything, and its Northeastern influence consists mainly of the states the people now living in South Florida (not of Hispanic background) came from rather than anything culturally significant.
Hell, go to Miami Dade county and you would think the county is a part of Cuba or a Latin American country! In Miami, English is the second language.
The only places you will find southern culture in Florida is in north Florida, and a few small pockets in interior central Florida like around Lake O and such.
The Orlando area also has a lot of Hispanics. I live in the southern half of Florida and the demographics here are A LOT different than you would find in most of Missouri, Kentucky, Arkansas or Tennessee for example. The immigrant population and non white population continues to increase in FL. Someone coming from states in the upper south I listed have never been exposed to this and many are in for a shock too when they move to FL. I live in a county that is more white, one of the whiter ones in SWFL but in places like Collier county you run into a lot of Hispanics and people who don't speak English as a first language. Many of them work the service jobs.
This is why I said FL is a good example of the country due to it being such a melting pot with immigrants from other countries and many not native to the state.
Hell, go to Miami Dade county and you would think the county is a part of Cuba or a Latin American country! In Miami, English is the second language.
The only places you will find southern culture in Florida is in north Florida, and a few small pockets in interior central Florida like around Lake O and such.
The Orlando area also has a lot of Hispanics. I live in the southern half of Florida and the demographics here are A LOT different than you would find in most of Missouri, Kentucky, Arkansas or Tennessee for example. The immigrant population and non white population continues to increase in FL. Someone coming from states in the upper south I listed have never been exposed to this and many are in for a shock too when they move to FL. I live in a county that is more white, one of the whiter ones in SWFL but in places like Collier county you run into a lot of Hispanics and people who don't speak English as a first language. Many of them work the service jobs.
This is why I said FL is a good example of the country due to it being such a melting pot with immigrants from other countries and many not native to the state.
True but to have a state that didn't influence Western expansion would make it less so in my opinion. This is why I think Missouri is more representative of the country as a whole. It is truly a MIDDLE state.
Hmmm. I thought we were discussing Kansas City.
Anyway, it's Midwestern... but the west made inroads early because of the need to get to eastern markets and Kansas City was the railroad hub. The Kansas City stockyards were second largest behind Chicago. Kansas City is sometimes referred to as a "cow town" because of that history. The American Royal livestock show and rodeo is a big annual event.
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