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As discussed here before, the census classifications don't mean much. They call MD and DE southern states when they're NOT southern states. It's way too broad.
As discussed here before, the census classifications don't mean much. They call MD and DE southern states when they're NOT southern states. It's way too broad.
They're just going by geography on that one and not culture. Maryland is far South enough to be considered the South geographically (especially if you look at a map without the upward slant that puts Maine above Seattle which it isn't). One could argue the heaviest populated areas of Virginia and North Carolina aren't Southern, either.
Heck MOST of Texas isn't Southern. The Eastern portion yes but the rest of the state is debatable between Plains, Frontier West, and even Midwest oriented like Dallas.
And Florida needed a region so South it was.
Maryland isn't the only state that doesn't belong in the South if we have to nitpick.
Below is another map that shows how the Census Bureau breaks down all the regions. They've designated four major ones -- Northeast, South, Midwest, and West -- each with their own sub-regions. For example, the Mid-Atlantic is part of the Northeast (and yet I recall a thread where people were arguing that Pennsylvania is part of the Midwest). This map has Maryland and Delaware as Southern Atlantic, but I always tended to think of them as Mid-Atlantic.
The odd thing is they've divided the West into Pacific and Mountain, but did not label the Southwest. Nor does the map have a label for the Plains states, and I've never heard anyone talk about any "East South Central" states!:
Although an editor has made a note asking for a citation on this statement, here's an interesting tidbit from Wikipedia and I wonder how accurate it is: "Traditional definitions of the Midwest include the Northwest Ordinance Old Northwest states and many states that were part of the Louisiana Purchase. The states of the Old Northwest are also known as Great Lakes states and are east-north central in the United States. The Ohio River runs along the southeastern section while the Mississippi River runs north to south near the center. Many of the Louisiana Purchase states in the west-north central United States, are also known as Great Plains states, where the Missouri River is a major waterway joining with the Mississippi. The Midwest lies north of the 36°30′ parallel that the 1820 Missouri Compromise established as the dividing line between future slave and non-slave states."
If you've read either "The Nine Nations of North America" or the newer "American Nations," you should realize that cultural regions don't neatly follow state boundaries. Much of the discussion in this very thread hinges on the fact that Missouri, though a "Midwestern" ("West North Central") state, isn't culturally or even linguistically homogeneous (consider that the debate over how to pronounce the state's name - do you pronounce the last syllable with a long E sound or with a schwa? - remains salient; the schwa ending is more common in western and southern Missouri while the long E dominates in the east and north; you'll hear Kansas Citians say it both ways - I use the long E). Both of the books I mentioned attempt to draw boundaries based on cultural attitudes and practices. Since you mentioned the state I live in now, I will simply note that Philadelphia and Pittsburgh are about as alike as St. Louis and Kansas City are; I got a feeling I was in the "Midwest" (here meaning the part of Ohio that includes Youngstown and Zanesville) than I was in the "Northeast" (to which Eastern Pennsylvania belongs). Likewise, you've seen people here say that Southeast Missouri, and the Bootheel especially, are definitely "Southern" (as others would also say about the southernmost tip of Illinois, which is otherwise definitely not a Southern state), and that you can find "Southern" influence as close as the southern border of Cass County.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOforthewin
As discussed here before, the census classifications don't mean much. They call MD and DE southern states when they're NOT southern states. It's way too broad.
As far as Maryland and Delaware are concerned:
Delaware was a slave state, but it was alone among the slave states in having no real pro-Confederate sentiment among its residents at all. The "border states" - Kentucky, Maryland and Missouri - never formally seceded from the Union but did have significant pro-Confederate sentiment in them (and Missouri actually had two competing state governments, one pro-Union, one pro-Confederate, during the war). The lyrics to Maryland's state song, "Maryland, My Maryland," are actually a call to rally Marylanders to the Confederate cause (which is why they're almost never sung) - and don't forget that the symbolic dividing line between North and South, the Mason-Dixon line, was drawn to settle land disputes between the Penn and Calvert families, the founders of Pennsylvania and Maryland respectively - the line forms the border between Pennsylvania and Maryland (and Delaware: the state's circular northern border was also part of that survey). Delaware is also split in two culturally: its northermnost county, New Castle, is urbanized - the state's one sizable city, Wilmington, is in it, as are both I-95 and the Northeast Corridor rail line, while its two other counties are decidedly more rural and share the more "Southern" attitudes of Maryland's Eastern Shore, with which they share the Delmarva Peninsula.
I too wouldn't consider Maryland "Southern," but it's not completely "Northern" either.
And while we're at it, we can also toss the District of Columbia into this cultural limbo too. It was the home to one of the nation's principal slave ports of arrival prior to the abolition of slave importation in 1808, and it was one of its principal slave markets afterward. The knock on it in the 1960s was that it "combined Southern efficiency and Northern charm." Today it's as "Southern" as the adjacent Virginia counties that comprise part of the Washington metropolitan area, which is to say, not Southern at all.
Heck MOST of Texas isn't Southern. The Eastern portion yes but the rest of the state is debatable between Plains, Frontier West, and even Midwest oriented like Dallas.
Not to mention the counties that border the Rio Grande, which are a separate region as well: "la frontera" or "El Norte" as "American Nations" label them - an amalgam of Mexican and American influences.
Interestingly, singer Sheryl Crow is from Kennett, MO, in the state's bootheel, and she tends to have Southern roots in her music. She sings with a lot of heart and soul in her music, huh? Great music.
Not to mention the counties that border the Rio Grande, which are a separate region as well: "la frontera" or "El Norte" as "American Nations" label them - an amalgam of Mexican and American influences.
Yes. Interestingly it seems that other people have a big problem with Maryland being included in the South than they do with Texas being included in the South. Most of these discussions usually involve little knowledge of Maryland's Tidewater culture of antiquity and the Appalachian/Carolinian influence to Baltimore. I am not saying Maryland is Southern. It's less Southern than Missouri (which today isn't Southern either). However, some people have no knowledge that these Southern undertones exist in the state.
Then these same people will over emphasize the Southern aspects of Texas when really they are not that spread out through the state. Austin isn't Southern. San Antonio sure isn't Southern. Houston is really the only TRUE Southern metro in Texas. Texas however fits into the a Southern mentality due to the very prominent stereotype of it being a Red State. However the state's Mexican influences, Western ones, and the Plains aspects of it give the state a very different personality depending on where you are. Not to mention that somehow people make a pass for Central European influence in Texas but they use it against Maryland. It's as if Maryland was on New England or something. At least rural Maryland has Red Counties and the Black Belt also extends up to Maryland just like it extends to Eastern Texas. Really Southern Maryland and Eastern Texas are the only truly Southern areas of those respective states but Texas' Southernness isn't put into question as much. Maybe it's because of Baltimore and DC being so prominent. But what about Austin, San Antonio, and Dallas? 3 very much not Southern cities. Isn't the stereotype of Texas to be Western, anyway? In my opinion the South makes a stop on Texas just like it does on Maryland. Then it slowly dissipates as you go further in the state and is fully gone at the border (Pennsylvania or New Mexico).
Interestingly, singer Sheryl Crow is from Kennett, MO, in the state's bootheel, and she tends to have Southern roots in her music. She sings with a lot of heart and soul in her music, huh? Great music.
The bootheel could absolutely be considered the Northernmost point of the Mississippi Delta in many ways. It's not very far from Memphis. It's a very isolated area and has little in common with the rest of the state however. Go up to Cape Girardeau and the Deep South feel goes away entirely. Go north of Cape and you're back in Missouree.
The bootheel could absolutely be considered the Northernmost point of the Mississippi Delta in many ways. It's not very far from Memphis. It's a very isolated area and has little in common with the rest of the state however. Go up to Cape Girardeau and the Deep South feel goes away entirely. Go north of Cape and you're back in Missouree.
Have to go more north than that. Jackson Missouri which is 10 miles north of Cape is a southern town. Just ask THB and KSHE girl. It's southern. Northern parts of Cape Girardeau county are Midwestern though, then when you get to Jackson the southerness picks up quick. There is little transition zone in that area of Missouri. Goes from lower Midwest to southern very quickly.
Also Maryland in the civil war is debatable. Yes, the lawmakers were jailed before they could go on the run like Missouri's did, but many historians don't think the votes would have even been there. Then the debate on whether the lawmakers would have to form a constitutional convention to decide on it or if they could do it themselves like Missouri's debatable secession vote in Neosho if the lawmakers even have authority on it or a convention has to be formed.
One difference for sure is that Maryland's slave population was going downward and many men were being freed, while in Missouri their slave population was growing at the start of the civil war.
Kentucky was in no serious danger of leaving the union. Missouri barely stayed in the union which is debatable the Neosho secession since if one if the lawmakers had the authority, 2 if enough were present, and 3 who were the elected lawmakers because the constitutional convention had no authority to evict Claiborne Jackson and the general assembly.
Kentucky had a Confederate Government but it was a lot less legit than Missouri as it was separate from the elected lawmakers. Most never dispute who was the legit government in KY unlike in MO with two governments.
Yes. Interestingly it seems that other people have a big problem with Maryland being included in the South than they do with Texas being included in the South. Most of these discussions usually involve little knowledge of Maryland's Tidewater culture of antiquity and the Appalachian/Carolinian influence to Baltimore. I am not saying Maryland is Southern. It's less Southern than Missouri (which today isn't Southern either). However, some people have no knowledge that these Southern undertones exist in the state.
Then these same people will over emphasize the Southern aspects of Texas when really they are not that spread out through the state. Austin isn't Southern. San Antonio sure isn't Southern. Houston is really the only TRUE Southern metro in Texas. Texas however fits into the a Southern mentality due to the very prominent stereotype of it being a Red State. However the state's Mexican influences, Western ones, and the Plains aspects of it give the state a very different personality depending on where you are. Not to mention that somehow people make a pass for Central European influence in Texas but they use it against Maryland. It's as if Maryland was on New England or something. At least rural Maryland has Red Counties and the Black Belt also extends up to Maryland just like it extends to Eastern Texas. Really Southern Maryland and Eastern Texas are the only truly Southern areas of those respective states but Texas' Southernness isn't put into question as much. Maybe it's because of Baltimore and DC being so prominent. But what about Austin, San Antonio, and Dallas? 3 very much not Southern cities. Isn't the stereotype of Texas to be Western, anyway? In my opinion the South makes a stop on Texas just like it does on Maryland. Then it slowly dissipates as you go further in the state and is fully gone at the border (Pennsylvania or New Mexico).
Also Texas is a huge state that covers different regions of the country. To a smaller extent Missouri has this problem too. However Texas and Missouri politically both resemble modern southern states though. Same mentality. Missouri is actually more republican in their house and state senate than Texas is currently. The super majorities are pretty massive in the MO house and will be back to 25 in MO come special election in the senate.
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