U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Missouri > Kansas City
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-18-2017, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,498,983 times
Reputation: 5415

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by zach_33 View Post
So the second reason you've cited is straight ahead dollars. easy to measure, easy to confirm. What is perhaps more interesting and much harder to measure is the first reason you have cited - lack of civic pride. I would challenge you and others to do a root cause analysis on that one. I am sure it is far more complicated than it sounds but if KC is truly unique in that regard, it would be a very compelling study.
One big reason is KC lacks fortune 500 headquarters. KC has become a regional hq town which tend to locate in suburban space or lower profile urban space.

So KC does not have many opportunities in the first place.

This is why the few large companies that KC does have such as Sprint and Cerner that have just never had any interest in being a part of the city have had so much negative impact on downtown.

By far, the company in KC with the most civic pride is Hallmark. A private company the fraction the size of Sprint or Cerner that has done more for KC than those companies combined both directly via Crown Center redevelopment and indirectly via philanthropic contributions. It's really too bad that Hallmark is struggling. Even though they are half the size they once were, they are still an important part of the city.

American Century is another local KC company with a lot of civic pride that has really given back a lot, especially for their size. Not only by remaining committed to the Plaza with their twin towers but also via civic contributions like the Stower's Research Institute which re purposed a vacant hospital near the plaza (hospital bolted for JoCo in the 1990s').

KC doesn't have companies like Hallmark or American Century anymore. Most KC companies just care about where they are going to get the biggest incentive package for their next new office building 20 miles from downtown. And once they move from downtown, they are gone forever. The new CEO's and employees become embedded in JoCo and become distanced from the city. Even AMC has gone from a very local company with a ton of civic pride to just another suburban office tenant answering to wall street. AMC once had employees all across the metro equal distance in every direction. Now I'm sure most live south of 435 somewhere. Stan Durwood would have loved to see a new tower downtown with AMC on it.

Last edited by kcmo; 05-18-2017 at 11:57 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-18-2017, 01:47 PM
 
112 posts, read 61,926 times
Reputation: 90
If this building is for a local company, this sucks. And that's coming from an OP resident. If this is a headquarters for a company from outside the Metro, I have mixed feelings. Although I'd rather have them move downtown, I'll be happy someone decided to move to the KC metro, even if they go suburban. We'll have to wait and see.

This has happened in Dallas to some degree as well. New headquarters for JC Penny, Pizza Hut, Exxon and others were built way out in Northwest Plano or thereabouts. Downtown itself is evidently struggling. The difference, though, is Dallas's Uptown is booming. And that's basically like if Crown Center was booming here.

I just hope this is a story of attracting someone from out of town rather than someone moving down the street, or even worse, someone leaving downtown.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2017, 01:53 PM
 
112 posts, read 61,926 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by zach_33 View Post
so why the bias against building office space downtown?
When this comes up at meetings I attend with organizations that support downtown, one of the things that is always said is that 50 year old white men (i.e., CEOs), want to be in the burbs. Problem is Millennials want to be downtown. I believe that KC could attract more talent from outside the metro if companies like Sprint, Cerner and Garmin had large presences downtown.

It's really shame too. Because commutes here, even from way out to downtown are so much shorter than most other cities. People here are very spoiled, and don't realize it. Getting downtown is rarely a true problem. KC's lack of traffic should be helping spur development downtown. But for some reason, it doesn't (this partly goes back to my theory that a bunch of small town folks move here, and so think traffic is bad and things are far even though to people in other cities, that wouldn't be the case).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2017, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,498,983 times
Reputation: 5415
I agree with both of your last posts DallastoChicago.

Somebody brought up Downtown St Louis and Clayton. That's similar to Uptown Dallas. At least central Dallas still can compete. It may not be all the way downtown, but there is a big difference between Uptown and Plano.

Clayton may technically be a different city than St Louis city, but for all practical purposes, it's basically Midtown St Louis and a MUCH better alternative to west county, st charles county etc. And many St Louis companies are based there or are building there when they could be clear outside 270 somewhere. I would love to see a couple million sq ft of office space added to the plaza vs all of it going to Kansas or elsewhere. KC is not getting anything anywhere in the core.

The plaza in KC has really slowed down. It really boomed for a while into the early 90's, but now it's just not growing very fast. It doesn't help that half the city comes out of the woodwork to "save the plaza" every time something bigger than a 4 story building is proposed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2017, 03:09 PM
 
112 posts, read 61,926 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
I agree with both of your last posts DallastoChicago.


It doesn't help that half the city comes out of the woodwork to "save the plaza" every time something bigger than a 4 story building is proposed.
Exactly this. But there are a couple of proposals right now that would make an impact. Hopefully they can get done. Not to split hairs, but I think Clayton is actually more like the Plaza than uptown in Dallas. Uptown is pretty much connected to Downtown. All those buildings starting at the right edge of Downtown and into the foreground make up part of uptown.

Edit: I think this is kind of an old pic. Uptown has more midrises than this now. But you get the picture.
Attached Thumbnails
This is why KC will never see a new office tower go up downtown...-uptown.jpg  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2017, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,498,983 times
Reputation: 5415
Yea, I know what you mean. Dallas is not really comparable to KC (or St Louis) though. I mean, you could say that all those highrises along the north toll road (75) or 35 north of downtown is more urban than suburban. Dallas is very built up compared to KC. Irving is like Overland Park.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2017, 03:26 PM
 
112 posts, read 61,926 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
Yea, I know what you mean. Dallas is not really comparable to KC (or St Louis) though. I mean, you could say that all those highrises along the north toll road (75) or 35 north of downtown is more urban than suburban. Dallas is very built up compared to KC. Irving is like Overland Park.
Ha. True. I was just surprised to hear that Downtown Dallas is really struggling but a contiguous area is booming. Seems strange to me.

Can you imagine if even one of Sprint, Cerner or Garmin had located to DTKC? In a new building?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2017, 08:43 PM
 
1,390 posts, read 1,705,399 times
Reputation: 878
I'd like to get a better handle on this from an analytical stand point. A cursory review suggests there is not good data collection on employee address matched with employee residence address (like, from the US Census American Household Data, longitudinally). So unless you are doing custom queries with the Census, you probably can't say definitively that there has been migration of jobs to or from city to burbs, or vice versa. Also, I would argue literature does a crummy job of defining "central business district." Simplistic monocentric models fail to account for density and commute times that are reality in cities with massive business districts outside of the core.

Having said that, I agree the tax breaks are a lose-lose situation. They steal value from society at large. It must be some kind of insecurity for some politicians - overcompensating for some personal shortcoming(s) maybe. And I also believe excessive development beyond the core is bad for the greater area. KC Metro will not thrive with a weak central business district. Weak CBDs=weak metro areas, strong CBDs=strong metro areas, including the suburbs.

Maybe you guys work with some developers who actually have some good data on square footage of office space (with zip code detail) across a number of US metros trended over years and decades?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2017, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,498,983 times
Reputation: 5415
Quote:
Originally Posted by zach_33 View Post
I'd like to get a better handle on this from an analytical stand point. A cursory review suggests there is not good data collection on employee address matched with employee residence address (like, from the US Census American Household Data, longitudinally). So unless you are doing custom queries with the Census, you probably can't say definitively that there has been migration of jobs to or from city to burbs, or vice versa. Also, I would argue literature does a crummy job of defining "central business district." Simplistic monocentric models fail to account for density and commute times that are reality in cities with massive business districts outside of the core.

Having said that, I agree the tax breaks are a lose-lose situation. They steal value from society at large. It must be some kind of insecurity for some politicians - overcompensating for some personal shortcoming(s) maybe. And I also believe excessive development beyond the core is bad for the greater area. KC Metro will not thrive with a weak central business district. Weak CBDs=weak metro areas, strong CBDs=strong metro areas, including the suburbs.

Maybe you guys work with some developers who actually have some good data on square footage of office space (with zip code detail) across a number of US metros trended over years and decades?
I don't know how you can possibly deny it. KCMO once had well over 100,000 jobs downtown. Now it's about half that. Think about it. Downtown was the job center while JoCo was little more than farm fields. You can trace hundreds of JoCo companies back to KCMO going back decades. Even Sprint. They were based in Westwood, but had about half of their employees in downtown and plaza office buildings prior to their campus being built.

Here is a link that shows how bad things are for kc and things could be much much worse if the federal government didn't move thousands of jobs downtown over that time period. Check out the graph. Only Vegas is worse and Vegas basically doesn't have a downtown. And this is only from 2007 to 2011 which were actually the GOOD years for Downtown KC with H&R Block and others moving downtown. The years prior to 2007 were much worse. At the same time, millions of sq ft of office space was added to JoCo.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/24/u...urbs.html?_r=0

Another link showing Downtown KC's losses

http://www.duanelester.com/kcmo-spen...nwhile-kansas/

Quote:
Census numbers indicate greater downtown, which stretches from the river to Crown Center, lost more than 16,000 jobs from 2001 to 2011, a 19.6 percent drop.
Quote:
“I don’t think we can calculate the amount of damage this border war has done,”
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-19-2017, 05:27 AM
 
1,390 posts, read 1,705,399 times
Reputation: 878
The spine chart from City Observatory that shows all the cities (with KC second to last) is for 2007-2011 time period. It would be helpful if we could see that data annually from say 1980-2016.

But yeah, its obviously a pretty rough climate for anyone hoping KCMO will gain on its peer cities. The way things look being sandwiched in-between Greitens and Brownback, expect more goofball executive parks in the middle of cow pastures, funded by the working class.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Missouri > Kansas City
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top