Visit to Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Louisville

[kcmo]

Originally Posted by Ztonyg

I think a downtown area is generally a waste for an open air NFL stadium that maybe only gets use 20 - 30 days a year. Baseball is a little different (as there are 81 games a year) but generally it also will also only be used maybe 85 days a year (81 baseball games and a few concerts). Cincinnati has a nice setup but their downtown arena is relatively lacking and their stadium district takes up some prime riverfront space (to be fair their old stadium, Riverfront stadium, was also in the same location).

I live in Phoenix and our downtown downtown stadium is on the light rail line and has a retractable roof but was built way too big (capacity is over 48,000) and the team is on the verge of moving to the suburbs (either Tempe or Scottsdale). Parking and transportation to the games is also terrible (as most games start at 6:40 p.m. which means traveling to the games is during rush hour). The stadium really also doesn't spur much year round development downtown (downtown was pretty dead until housing was built).

Of the 3 cities mentioned, I am most familiar with Cincinnati (as my brother lived there for 3 years).

Cincinnati feels a lot like Kansas City (and demographically, culturally, and climate wise I believe they are fairly similar).

In my experience (having never lived either in Kansas City or Cincinnati) I'd have to say the following:

Cincinnati has a more cohesive, interconnected downtown. There really isn't a separate "Plaza" area or "crossroads" or "westport" type area. All of the shopping, entertainment, sports, nightlife for the area is centered around the downtown core.

Cincinnati has a better airport terminal. Yes, I know that if a new terminal was built today it wouldn't look like what Cincinnati has now, but having a terminal built on the bones of a former 650+ daily flight airline hub does work in Cincinnati's favor.

Xavier + University of Cincinnati > UMKC.

Kings Island > Worlds of Fun

I'd argue that Kansas City has a better suburban environment than Cincinnati and Kansas City is growing economically at a faster rate. However, I love Cincinnati's urban built environment and urban core and feel that it's a very very underrated and beautiful city (most beautiful major city in Ohio by miles).

Kansas City just doesn't have this type of view:

There is an awesome single track mountain bike trail in Devou park in KY. It's a blast if you like mountain biking. The view from Waterworks park is similar, but not quite as good. Cincy has pretty awesome topography though. Over the Rhine is really taking off, but so is Crossroads in KC both are very different architecturally but equally cool. Honestly Downtown Cincy seems to have more of a crime element than Downtown KC does but neither feel unsafe or anything. I much prefer KC's streetcar over Cincy's which winds all over the place. Cincy and KC are very similar overall.

I agree, a football stadium should not be anywhere near downtown. Baseball stadiums are okay so long as placed on the edge of the downtown and parking can be controlled to specific areas. Although Paul Brown Stadium is hemmed into a pretty good spot between highways and the river while it's a huge dead zone, it's not really creating much of a negative impact on the city. What's kind of interesting about Cincy's downtown stadiums is that a lot of people park in Kentucky and walk across the pedestrian bridges to the games. We did that last time we saw a game there.

FYI, been to Cincy three times this year and Indy/Louisville twice this year. All three blow KC out of the water when it comes to urban core recreation.

[CrownVic95]

Originally Posted by kcmo

I know you are being sarcastic

I have been to the cities mentioned here many times along with every other city in the country many times over. While I was and continue to be an avid supporter of moving Kauffman Stadium downtown (actually the edge of downtown), the areas around stadiums are almost always the most desolate and lifeless parts of any downtown. Unless you are there for an actual game, they do nothing but create massive demand for parking and their footprints just destroy the vibrancy of an area for blocks. In addition to being so taxing on parking and traffic, they are terrible for supporting any sort of retail within a block or so of the stadiums. They actually drive off retail to other parts of downtown because people stay away from stadiums when they are in use due to parking, roads closed and crowds and then they don't have enough business when games are not going on because the areas around stadiums are mostly parking.

And cities with some of the nicest downtown parks (cleveland, baltimore, seattle, san diego, pittsburgh, cincinnati, minneapolis, etc) all draw fans relatively poorly and in KC where people are extremely sensitive about parking, I honestly think a stadium any larger than an arena downtown would actually hurt attendance during years when the team is bad.

So..

What I'm saying is that a stadium does not make or break a downtown and putting one in downtown KC may end up doing more harm than good to the revitalization of the urban core. Even the area around the Sprint center is not developing because parking lots are more valuable than developing them. I'm not saying the sprint center should not be there. If a large 40,000 seat venue is not on the extreme edge of downtown facing an industrial type area where there can be parking without disrupting the urban fabric of a city, then a stadium will do more harm than good. And KC's streetcar would be pretty much worthless as a transit option for a baseball stadium. Buses would move more people faster after a game than a streetcar.

What KCMO needs to do that all these other cities have is build recreation infrastructure downtown. lovekcmo mentioned Cincy having a pedestrian bridge. They have more than one. They have like three or four and an extensive trail system on both sides of the river. Louisville has a similar system of downtown bridges, trails and bike paths. Indy does not have quite as big of a river, but they also have a very extensive downtown parks and trails system that follows the riverfronts etc. Memphis, Richmond, Des Moines, Omaha, Twin Cities, Pittsburgh, Tulsa, Little Rock, Philly, DC, Milwaukee, Portland, Seattle, Boston, basically every single metro of over 500k has extensive urban recreation infrastructure now. Hell, even St Louis has really closed the gap and they were probably the only city as lacking as KC despite being directly on the river. StL has Forest Park which always put it ahead of KC, but they are now at least trying to do things with downtown as well and have built a dedicated bike way along the river into the north and south sides of the city.

I honestly don't get how all the people moving to Downtown KC are not screaming and demanding more urban recreation. The only thing I can think of is that most people that live in Downtown KC are just not accustomed to just how much recreation is now a part of urban culture in large cities because they are moving there from suburban KC and rural areas.

So that's where KC should spend public money next IMO.

Having said all that. I have a lot of respect for all the cities mentioned here. I would probably put KC right with Cincinnati, but I still prefer KC over Indy and KC is at least a whole tier above Louisville.

Amazing (but refreshing, if genuine) evolution from where you've always been on this topic. Will the REAL kcmo please stand up?

It's been a while, I guess, and it is said that wisdom comes with age.

[kcmo]

Originally Posted by CrownVic95

Amazing (but refreshing, if genuine) evolution from where you've always been on this topic. Will the REAL kcmo please stand up?

It's been a while, I guess, and it is said that wisdom comes with age.

My opinion has not changed all that much. I still think a downtown ballpark would have been a great investment for KC so long as it's placed in an area that makes sense.

My preferred location all along was the east crossroads west of the the Jazz district or just north of the RR tracks in the east crossroads (that site is now being developed though). I have never liked any other location. Putting a stadium in Washington Square Park, the Riverfront or the North Loop would do more harm than good to the urban fabric and vibrancy of those areas. I have always said that. You need the stadium in an area where highway access is good and there is room for a lot of parking on at least one side of the stadium.

If done right and put in a location like that, it would have been great for Downtown and would have really helped promote KC as an urban city rather than just a spread out suburban metro with stuff connected by freeways.

But the stadiums are also fine where they are. It's not hurting downtown to not have the baseball stadium there. It would be nice if they did something more with the area around the stadiums and the sports complex itself though.

A nice hotel tower and some restaurants between the stadiums would be a nice upgrade.

[Peter1948]

A recent visit to KC shows some TOD has picked up. How do you see streetcars shaping urban KC in 5 years? Do you think streetcars are a gimmick or worth it?

[twan2001]

Originally Posted by Weaubleau

Is this a sarcastic post? I honestly can't tell. In any event if it is not, this attitude is one that holds KC back from taking the next step forward as a leading city in the Midwest.

4 days later...

Of course it was sarcasm.

[CrownVic95]

Originally Posted by twan2001

4 days later...

Of course it was sarcasm.

Just because you meant it that way doesn't mean it wasn't true. KC people DO know better that those deluded into thinking the good life and high population density go hand in hand.

A downtown baseball park in KC would cut attendance in half within 5 years....probably a lot less.

[lovekcmo]

I was at a Federal conference in Cincinnati, 340 of us, about 60 of us walked to a Reds game, blocks and blocks of packed restaurants from the hotel to the stadium. I think a baseball stadium on the edge of downtown would work. I was in downtown KC last night for the Heartland Men's Chorus Concert and I drove in, parked down in River Market, met friends, we rode streetcar down to P&L had dinner before walking up to the Folly Theater. The streetcar at 4:30 was packed-standing-tight, squeezed in, high density. I noticed walking around downtown before and after the concert how many beautiful old buildings still standing. We should be proud of KC's downtown. Went to a martini bar on Main street after the concert, was packed. Downtown KC was buzzing with people last night and I think a stadium could and would work. As long as the "thug" element doesn't encroached upon downtown area from say Grand Ave-west, downtown will be just great. The freeway loop around the city was a mistake, I-70 should have come in through Kansas, north of the downtown airport and through NKC and some of KC hometown business should have made marks in downtown occupancy of buildings would have made downtown even better than it is now.

[kcstreetcarfan]

Originally Posted by Ztonyg

Kansas City just doesn't have this type of view:

Downtown Cinci looks good. But you're clueless about KC.
KC also has stunning vista views of downtown from it's high bluffs.
I'm not sure if we are allowed to post photos or not, perhaps KCMO can post some of his.

[elkotronics]

One of the best shots of KC I've seen - really accentuates the Plaza area at the south end of downtown there. The Plaza was our favorite KC destination in the year we lived south of town.

[kcstreetcarfan]

Originally Posted by kcmo

My opinion has not changed all that much. I still think a downtown ballpark would have been a great investment for KC so long as it's placed in an area that makes sense.

My preferred location all along was the east crossroads west of the the Jazz district or just north of the RR tracks in the east crossroads (that site is now being developed though). I have never liked any other location. Putting a stadium in Washington Square Park, the Riverfront or the North Loop would do more harm than good to the urban fabric and vibrancy of those areas. I have always said that.

Well said, the East Crossroads has great highway access, and has plenty of room for growth. It's also close enough to downtown, Crown Center and 18th n' Vine Jazz District to tie them all together into a critical mass.

The north loop and Washington Sq Park are locations are too tight.