How "southern" is Kansas City?

[KC_Retiree]

Originally Posted by James Bond 007

The "Southern-ness" is more about people than scenery or cityscape.

A fair amount of people in KC have some sort of Southern accent. And the largest Protestant denomination in Missouri are the Southern Baptists. Won't find much of either of those in the Midwest outside of Missouri.

I've never heard a southern accent in KC unless the person yielding it was a transplant from the south.

KC is a midwestern city. I do not see why there is a debate about this.

While the earliest white inhabitants in western Missouri may have been transplants from the south, that was a time when the area wasn't very densely populated. Like most midwestern cities in the US, KC grew during the late 1800's and early 1900's as immigrants moved into the city to take advantage of jobs created by a growing industrial base (unlike the largely agrarian based southern cities). The in-migration during the industrialization of the US dwarfed the existing population. Over the years, that demographic gets blurred further by education and socio-economic standing.

Southern Baptists may be a big part of Missouri but not so much in KC. Many southern Baptists church's in KC are largely black and more a result of the great migration much more so than the presence of southern whites (something all northern and midwestern cities have in common).

And don't confuse KC with the rest of Missouri. South of I-44, there is absolutely a southern component but that population is not a factor in KC.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by KC_Retiree

Southern Baptists may be a big part of Missouri but not so much in KC. Many southern Baptists church's in KC are largely black and more a result of the great migration much more so than the presence of southern whites (something all northern and midwestern cities have in common).

Baptist churches, yes; Southern Baptist churches, no.

The Southern Baptist Convention defended segregation. No black Baptist church I know of would have affiliated itself with that organization.

Quite likely, most of the black Baptist churches in Kansas City are members of the National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc., including the one where I went to Sunday school as a child (Friendship Baptist) and the one my Aunt Lily attended (Second Baptist on East 39th Street). Some might be affiliated with the American Baptist Churches USA, based outside Philadelphia, but I don't think too many are.

[James Bond 007]

Originally Posted by KC_Retiree

I've never heard a southern accent in KC unless the person yielding it was a transplant from the south.

I've heard plenty. My former boss was born and raised in KCMO, and had a southern drawl.

Though his family was from Arkansas, so I guess he just talked the way his parents did.

But I think that's one of the issues: When you're somewhat close to another region of the country, that region's characteristics are going to bleed into your region, because people from that region will often move into your region. For example, there are going to be a lot more people whose families hail from the South in Missouri than there are in, say, Iowa or Minnesota. As a result, Missouri is going to seem a bit more "Southern" than those other two states.

[mo guy]

If you look back to the 1860's --- St Louis was definitely on the Union side ---and that kept Missouri from completely pulling out of the Union --- KC was definitely on the Confederate side --- the Southern armies could never even approach St Louis --the closest they got is General Prices failed raid and the disastrous battle of Pilot Knob ---which made Price veer from his intended target St Louis, and run to the friendly Confederate Western side of the state ---where the biggest battle west of the Mississippi was fought at Westport ( present KC) -- KC was where the Civil war began with 'Bloody Kansas" and KC was where the last gasp of the Confederacy played out on the battlefield of Westport.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by mo guy

If you look back to the 1860's --- St Louis was definitely on the Union side ---and that kept Missouri from completely pulling out of the Union --- KC was definitely on the Confederate side --- the Southern armies could never even approach St Louis --the closest they got is General Prices failed raid and the disastrous battle of Pilot Knob ---which made Price veer from his intended target St Louis, and run to the friendly Confederate Western side of the state ---where the biggest battle west of the Mississippi was fought at Westport ( present KC) -- KC was where the Civil war began with 'Bloody Kansas" and KC was where the last gasp of the Confederacy played out on the battlefield of Westport.

I tell people on this coast that "Bleeding Kansas" was "the dress rehearsal for the Civil War."

And don't forget Order No. 11 and "the Burnt District." Not as dramatic as Gen. Sherman's March to the Sea, but done for much the same reasons, and in both cases, the city at the end of the destruction was spared.

[KC_Retiree]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

Even though Kansas City and Memphis barbecue are kissing cousins, and even though the migratory path of jazz led from New Orleans* to Kansas City on its way to New York, and even though the Kansas City Southern Railway's premier passenger train was called "the Southern Belle," the cultural vibe one gets in KC IMO is far more Midwestern than Southern.

Sheesh, when Kansas Citians want to say "F**k you," they say "f**k you."

*New Orleans is one Southern city that in some key ways departs from "the ways of the South".

Agreed.

Far too much emphasis in this discussion is put on what KC was at the time of the civil war when western Missouri was indeed populated by people who had largely migrated from the south. But this historical fact needs to be put into perspective. At the time of the civil war, KC had a population of 4,000 people. By 1870, KC's population had ballooned to 32,000. Almost all of that growth came with the railroad bridge built in 1869. But the axis of growth had changed by then, it was no longer from the south but rather from the east and other established midwest cities and particularly via European immigration. The population of southern farmers was that lived in the KC area at that time were dwarfed already by 1870 and the city's population exploded from 1870 to 1900 with more of the same. My own ancestors arrived from Italy via Ellis Island around this time because of the large amount of manufacturing jobs that midwestern cities were attracting. At the same time, the south remained largely agricultural. The old industrial cores that are present in the West Bottoms and Fairfax , along the Blue River and in Armourdale in KC largely do not exist in most southern cities. The same industrial centers can be found in Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Chicago etc.....

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by KC_Retiree

Agreed.

Far too much emphasis in this discussion is put on what KC was at the time of the civil war when western Missouri was indeed populated by people who had largely migrated from the south. But this historical fact needs to be put into perspective. At the time of the civil war, KC had a population of 4,000 people. By 1870, KC's population had ballooned to 32,000. Almost all of that growth came with the railroad bridge built in 1869. But the axis of growth had changed by then, it was no longer from the south but rather from the east and other established midwest cities and particularly via European immigration. The population of southern farmers was that lived in the KC area at that time were dwarfed already by 1870 and the city's population exploded from 1870 to 1900 with more of the same. My own ancestors arrived from Italy via Ellis Island around this time because of the large amount of manufacturing jobs that midwestern cities were attracting. At the same time, the south remained largely agricultural. The old industrial cores that are present in the West Bottoms and Fairfax , along the Blue River and in Armourdale in KC largely do not exist in most southern cities. The same industrial centers can be found in Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Chicago etc.....

Good summary of one of the key ways in which Kansas City ceased to be "Southern."

Most Southern cities don't have significant immigrant neighborhoods established in the late 19th century. Kansas City has them - both European and Hispanic.

[TabulaRasa]

Originally Posted by KC_Retiree

I've never heard a southern accent in KC unless the person yielding it was a transplant from the south.

When I moved from northern Illinois in 2007, it sounded to my ear like EVERY SINGLE PERSON had a slight drawl (and everyone I worked with either thought I sounded like an extra from "Fargo" or one of Bill Swerski's Superfans, depending on who you asked).

Over a dozen years later, my ear has acclimated, and I don't even notice it. But, yeah, when you move from substantially further north, it is initially quite noticeable.

[TabulaRasa]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

Baptist churches, yes; Southern Baptist churches, no.

The Southern Baptist Convention defended segregation. No black Baptist church I know of would have affiliated itself with that organization.

Quite likely, most of the black Baptist churches in Kansas City are members of the National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc., including the one where I went to Sunday school as a child (Friendship Baptist) and the one my Aunt Lily attended (Second Baptist on East 39th Street). Some might be affiliated with the American Baptist Churches USA, based outside Philadelphia, but I don't think too many are.

I wish more people understood this distinction.