Three Trails Project including Wizards Stadium clears Final Hurdle (Kansas City: loft, houses)

[RjRobb2]

The Kansas City Kansas has reported that this will be the largest job creator in Wyandotte County history by creating 8,000 totally new jobs. That's a lot of new jobs and it doesnt take jobs from any other areas, that is all entirely new jobs.


http://www.kansascitykansan.com/news...tor-in-history

[kcmo]

Originally Posted by OneKC

How are Kansas STAR bonds, different than Missouri Super TIFs? I'm not challenging you, I genuinely want to know if there is a difference. Is it a matter of getting the money up front?

STAR bonds are a quite a bit more aggressive than MO supertiffs. But MO supertiffs should be illegal too, at least for suburban greenfield developments. Reserve those kinds of incentives for urban renewal projects. Supertiff is ok for Bannister Mall or Downtown. Not the new Blue Springs Target.

Corporate welfare is out of control in KC. The entire KC area. KCK has already done one of the largest corporate giveaways in the nation with Village West. If this stuff keeps up, nobody will be paying taxes. All taxes will go into developments and since you can get such tax breaks to build in the middle of nowhere, there is zero incentive to rebuild older sections of the metro. KC is one of the only towns with several massive vacant malls or empty land where malls once stood.

Cerner should be in a tower downtown, or on the KCK riverfront if they want to be star bonded. Even the Bannister Mall site would have been great to help bring back a huge part of metro KC. STAR bonding Cerner to build a ****ing soccer stadium and I'm sure their own office buildings way out in western WyCo is simply ludicrous and irresponsible.

Most of KCK is crap, total and complete crap. Yet they continue to build this stuff by the speedway that will be blight in 10-15 years. The shelf life of most suburban retail centers is 10-20 years before they start to decline. With the demographics and tiny population around Village West it will be even less.

[famusdarlin]

Originally Posted by OneKC

Missouri doesn't give KC the tools it needs to compete like Kansas does.

It sucks, but I think the Wizards will be better off. What I am disappointed with is hearing people on the radio and online bag on Bannister so much. I worked there in the 90s and it wasn't that bad. The concerns about "shootings" are WAYYYY overblown. And besides, people said the same thing about the Legends site before that was built (it was too dangerous!) I really hope they can build something better at Bannister.

Completely agree!

It's just too bad for the South Kansas City area. It seems like this area will never see any revitilization. I hold out hope that IHOP, International House of Prayer is going to help this area in the way that the government can not.

[Samantha S]

Originally Posted by kcmo

STAR bonds are a quite a bit more aggressive than MO supertiffs. But MO supertiffs should be illegal too, at least for suburban greenfield developments. Reserve those kinds of incentives for urban renewal projects. Supertiff is ok for Bannister Mall or Downtown. Not the new Blue Springs Target.

So tax incentives should be illegal except in the areas of the metro that YOU like? Surrounding local governments should not be allowed to compete against areas that YOU deem more worthy?

KCK has already done one of the largest corporate giveaways in the nation with Village West. If this stuff keeps up, nobody will be paying taxes.

Um, I don't know about you, but I'm still paying taxes. In fact, as I understand it, the sales tax revenue generated in VW has exceeded expectations making this further development possible. Which creates jobs (doesn't move them, these are new jobs) there will be more state income taxes paid as well which don't go back to the development cost.

there is zero incentive to rebuild older sections of the metro.

And yet the Wizards and Cerner wanted to do it anyway! But when KCMO dragged it's feet, this was a no-brainer.

Cerner should be in a tower downtown, or on the KCK riverfront if they want to be star bonded. Even the Bannister Mall site would have been great to help bring back a huge part of metro KC. STAR bonding Cerner to build a ****ing soccer stadium and I'm sure their own office buildings way out in western WyCo is simply ludicrous and irresponsible.

Again, why? Because you don't like the area they chose?

Most of KCK is crap, total and complete crap.

Nice. I wonder how you would react if I said the same thing about the Bannister Mall area or Raytown, or Independence

Yet they continue to build this stuff by the speedway that will be blight in 10-15 years. The shelf life of most suburban retail centers is 10-20 years before they start to decline. With the demographics and tiny population around Village West it will be even less.

The developments happening in that area have moved beyond the strip malls. You don't have to like the area and you might even be right about it declining at some point. Hey, nothing lasts forever.

But I honestly don't understand bitterness over this. This is not surprising at all. This is par for the course in KCMO leadership. Of course your reaction to it isn't surprising either.

[RjRobb2]

Originally Posted by kcmo

STAR bonds are a quite a bit more aggressive than MO supertiffs. But MO supertiffs should be illegal too, at least for suburban greenfield developments. Reserve those kinds of incentives for urban renewal projects. Supertiff is ok for Bannister Mall or Downtown. Not the new Blue Springs Target.

I usually agree with a lot of your post but Samantha has you nailed on this one.

You believe Star Bonds and Super TIFS should be illegal accept for certain areas? That concept in and of itself should be illegal. That's discrimination. I get what you are saying about encouraging urban development and reducing sprawl but you can't discriminate in that manner.

Originally Posted by kcmo

Corporate welfare is out of control in KC. The entire KC area. KCK has already done one of the largest corporate giveaways in the nation with Village West. If this stuff keeps up, nobody will be paying taxes. All taxes will go into developments and since you can get such tax breaks to build in the middle of nowhere, there is zero incentive to rebuild older sections of the metro. KC is one of the only towns with several massive vacant malls or empty land where malls once stood.

KCK was brilliant in what they gave Village West. That development has been overwhelmingly successful. That area needed development just as bad, if not worse than the Bannister area does. That area is packed all the time. I have been there in the middle of the week, during the day, when temperatures were in the teens and I had a hard time to find a parking spot.

Star Bonds and TIFs are investments. You give the initial money for the development in return for the tax revenue it will generate. KCK is getting rich off Village West and they are getting ready to be even richer.

Originally Posted by kcmo

Cerner should be in a tower downtown, or on the KCK riverfront if they want to be star bonded. Even the Bannister Mall site would have been great to help bring back a huge part of metro KC. STAR bonding Cerner to build a ****ing soccer stadium and I'm sure their own office buildings way out in western WyCo is simply ludicrous and irresponsible.

Why? Because that is where YOU prefer it be built. How is it ludicrous and irresponsible?

It will bring EIGHT THOUSAND BRAND NEW JOBS TO THE AREA. That is in no way irresponsible.

You seem to be failing to understand that the KCMO city government dropped the ball. KCK is stepping up to the plate and capturing an opportunity. That's not irresponsible, that's business. This is how it works.

Originally Posted by kcmo

Most of KCK is crap, total and complete crap. Yet they continue to build this stuff by the speedway that will be blight in 10-15 years. The shelf life of most suburban retail centers is 10-20 years before they start to decline. With the demographics and tiny population around Village West it will be even less.

That may have been the case 10 years ago. That has completely changed. I have a few friends that have moved out there. In fact, one friend of mine bought a house for 110K about 8 years ago. That house is now worth 200K.

You have to drive about 10-15 minutes from Village West to get to the parts of KCK

Village West isnt going to be blight in 10-15 years. Cabela's is one of the top tourist attractions in the state of Kansas. They have a NASCAR track and they are getting ready to build a brand new casino. On top of the possible soccer stadium and 4,000 employee Cerner complex. You think that is only going to be blight in 10-15 years? Seriously?



You have made it apparent with your post that you know very little about KCK.

I would be embarrassed by your post if I was you. You just spewed nothing but ignorance. Your post is short-sighted and very clearly biased with no true reasons for your opinions other than you overwhelming favoritism of urban KCMO and hate for anything Kansas.

[TabulaRasa]

Originally Posted by northbound74

One more reason to aviod soccer.

Hah! Count me among those who doesn't give a rat's ass about soccer, in any way, shape, or form...but it is sad to me that the Bannister area is losing an opportunity for revitalization. Would have been a nice, and needed, thing.

[kcmo]

Yea, I do believe that. Extremely aggressive incentives like STAR bonds and Super Tiffs (which are not even as aggressive as STAR Bonds) should be limited to very select areas and situations. Using these types of incentives to bring in a new company to the area. Such as when Boeing or Miller was looking for a new HQ in the city or burbs is fine. They should also be saved for instances where the funds can be used to rebuild or redevelop existing areas such as Downtown KCMO or Downtown KCK or the Bannister Mall or the Metcalf South Mall.

If a company can use a super tiff to build on a farm field, where is the incentive for the company to build in the urban core or redevelop an area?

There is none.

Plus, why does every company in town have to be in some sort of tif or star bonded project? It’s no wonder the KC area has such a lackluster infrastructure, zero transit, a subpar parks system etc. Only so much can be put on the backs of residents alone.

How is KCMO supposed to “step up” any more then they already do? They give away the farm to get H&R Block to move 40 blocks. They have to offer every company in the city aggressive incentives because most will use the “we will move to KS if you don’t” card.

My thing with KCK is the fact that I think the city has so much potential. I don’t mean suburban sprawl out along 435, but in the urban core. KCK could so easily be a true urban companion to KCMO. Like Covington is to Cincinnati. Every time the city uses STAR bonds to build more along 435 is one less opportunity to bring back the actual city. Why not STAR bond Village West to build an aquarium at the Kaw Point? Why not have an overlay tax on the VW area to fund a street car line from Strawberry Hill to Westheight? Why not try to get Cerner to build a tower in Downtown KCK?

Every city in the nation is rediscovering their urban core, even industrial suburban/urban cities like KCK. It’s great that KCK has found a way to spark suburban growth. It’s just disappointing that most of the city is still pretty stagnant, if not in a state of decline. I know there are nice areas in KCK, both urban and suburban. But much of the city looks like hell. Even much of the built up areas have no sidewalks, curbs, gutter or street lights and although improving, the population and density of WyCo west of 90th is very very low. There is only about 15,000 people within 5 miles of the speedway. A shopping center like Village West realistically needs 200-300 thousand people within about 5-10 miles. That’s why the city is forced to put everything they can find out there because it will take decades for the housing to support that retail when other residents of other areas get tired of driving or have newer choices closer to home. Village West already struggles. They have to do 90% of their sales on weekends to make up for their extremely slow weekdays.

I just want the metro area to be a bit more urban, a bit nicer, a bit less blightened, a bit less spread out, a bit less suburban in general. KCMO and KCK have so much potential, yet every year both cities seem to pass up great opportunities and every year more companies head for the pastures that line 435. Between OP, Leawood etc, and now it’s Lenexa, Olathe and possibly even KCK, the city continues to hollow out as 435 is built up.

I guess the bottom line is KC has decided what type of city it wants to be and sprawl and blight seems to be the predominate end result. Sure I'm "selfish". KC is my home town. Sorry.

Every major city in the nation has thier big local companies stepping up and doing really neat things the the "city". Because they WANT to, not because they can get every tax incentive possible. Big high profile towers go up in Denver, Charlotte, Minneapolis, hell, even Oklahoma City. All while KC gets suburban campuses that go to the highest bidder.

[northbound74]

Originally Posted by RjRobb2

KCK was brilliant in what they gave Village West. That development has been overwhelmingly successful. That area needed development just as bad, if not worse than the Bannister area does. That area is packed all the time. I have been there in the middle of the week, during the day, when temperatures were in the teens and I had a hard time to find a parking spot.

How on earth does the middle of nowhere need development worse than an already existing area that's full of neighborhoods.... families.... thousands of people who have invested in southeast Kansas City by buying a home there. A place that has been in such existence for over 50 years now.
There still isn't much in the way of neighborhoods out by the speedway.

The only reason KCK needs Village West to be built up is for the speedway to avoid becoming another Truman Sports Complex with virtually nothing around it for the fans. Well, congratulations to them. They succeeded, even if it was at the expense to the rest of their very own city.
Of course it's packed all the time. Build a retail Disneyland, hype it up like the greatest thing since the Rocky Mountains, and certainly the people will come. That's not a good reason just to build a bunch of stuff out on some cow pasture, just because you can get people to go there. People will go anywhere were there's something they think is interesting to look at. Crown Center's packed all the time, and so is the Plaza... even in areas suburbanites otherwise would be terrified to go to... because they're interesting. That's all it takes, really.
Responsible city planning is what we're looking for here. All areas of the metro have been horribly inept at this concept over the years.

Yes, I know KCMO really messed up with the stadiums. I wasn't around then, and don't know what all they did wrong, and it does irritate me to see the areas around them to be in the condition they're in. I understand the need to put "stuff" around such things. Better yet, put them where some "stuff" already exists. Then it's a win-win situation.

Simply building another retail complex on Bannister probably wouldn't work for long. The demographics around there are lower-income now, and they can't support that much retail real estate on their own. Of course, they'd probably be the only ones to visit it.
A soccer stadium and an office complex, in addition to that retail, would have brought in much needed visitors to the area that could support anything that would go in there for a very long time.

As for who's fault it is, I don't know. What I've been reading on the Star's website makes it sound like it's mostly Cerner and the Wizards who made the decision. KCMO and Missouri did all they could from the way it sounds, and I still haven't seen where the whole "not until 2015" or so is coming from. Of course, the people in charge blame the economy, that the retail part was already in place over in Kansas.
Well, that's just the way it looks from where I'm standing. I could be wrong.

[Samantha S]

Originally Posted by kcmo

I just want the metro area to be a bit more urban, ... a bit less spread out, a bit less suburban in general.

Yes, we all know that this is what YOU want.

I guess the bottom line is KC has decided what type of city it wants to be

Hooray!! You finally get it!! You are simply too far outnumbered.

Every major city in the nation has thier big local companies stepping up and doing really neat things the the "city". Because they WANT to, not because they can get every tax incentive possible.

Yeah ... like it would be really great if one of the big KC companies, even one that was headquartered in, say, a suburban area, would do something cool like build a big arena right in the heart of the metro that could host tons of different types of events. You know ... something like that could spark a whole new "district" of sorts with lots of restaurants and stuff ...

Oh ... wait ....

BTW, if you think ANY big company in ANY city does ANYthing because it WANTS to, as opposed to "because it will make them more money" then you are sadly deluded.

[kcmo]

samantha, sprint bought the naming rights to the arena. they didn't build it and since the arena has no nhl or nba tenant, the naming rights contract is pretty small. They didn't build the arena, they took advantage of an advertising venue. If sprint didn’t do it, somebody else would have.

Big difference is that in most towns, the HQ company that has their names on local arenas also has a huge urban presence as well.

Target has naming rights to the arena and the new baseball stadium in Minneapolis. Target also is a HUGE part of Downtown Minneapolis.

It’s good that Sprint bought the naming rights. Naming rights tend to go to local companies of venues first. But to say they really had much impact on building the arena is pushing it since it’s just part of their marking program.

Now there are some cases where local companies have stepped up and helped fund stadium venues. Sprint is not one of them. If the Chiefs decide to sell naming rights to Arrowhead, I'm sure Sprint will consider it. Not because they want to donate to KC, but because they will get first dibs (for being local) on a major advertising venue.