Relocating to KC - KS or MO (Kansas City, Springfield: house, to buy)

[kcmo]

Originally Posted by northbound74

I don't understand. What is supposed to make those JoCo schools better?
The two states have very different ways of calculating how well students perform. There's really no exact way to compare them. The way Kansas scores things, it gives the appearance of having a higher percentage of students who perform very well. A closer look at the numbers reveal that there's not that big of a difference.
The schools are probably more similar than most Johnson County folks would like to admit. I don't blame them for trying to deny it. They're the ones over-paying for housing and taxes. They have to find some way to justify the extra expense, I guess.

I don't get it either. Shawnee Mission is no better than NKC, most of the schools in that district are dated and if you didn't know any better, many parts of the district, the schools and the neighborhood around them resemble Raytown, not SKC, but Raytown.

That's not a bad thing at all. Raytown is a very good school district. But to people in JoCo, that would be a major insult.

Blue Valley is just a very very wealthy district and with that, you get fancy schools and almost zero people from lower demographics to bring down stats.

But you can't tell me that a good, honor roll student at BV is any smarter than a good honor roll student from Park Hill, NKC, Lee's Summit, Blue Springs, Raytown, RayPec, Liberty etc.

Olathe? Same deal. No better than the above districts.

If you have ever set foot in some of the Northland schools and the areas around them, you wouldn't know if you were in JoCo, Eastern Jackson, Northland, or suburban Denver. It's all the same.

But keep thumbing your nose at the Missouri side people. This forum proves exactly why there is so much resentment from Missourians toward JoCo people. Most people in MO can't stand the JoCo attitude. Not the people, just the arrogant and ignorant attitude that anybody in MO will tell you about it you ask.

Anyway,

Samantha,

Western Shawnee is actually my favorite part of JoCo. I like it a lot. I like the hills, the trees, the parks, the housing styles etc. If I had to choose a KS suburb, that's where I would go. We go out there to ride the bike trails etc.

I have nothing against JoCo. But for years and years and years I have heard the same old stuff over and over about how the Kansas side is better at everything than the MO side.

Well, one thing the KS side is good at is freeloading off the MO side.

This is one of the only metro areas in the country where so much of the metro leans and leaches off another part of the metro. There is very little metro wide cooperation, very little metro wide funding for regional assets and lots and lots of luring companies from KCMO to greenfields in JoCo with incentives.

The last thing we want to hear after filling your office parks with companies that used to be and still should be in our urban core is how much better your schools and neighborhoods are.

I would just ask you to get out more. We go to JoCo all the time even though we have no reason to. Try it; go shopping in the northland or some other area of town. Your car won't get stolen, you won't get shot, you won't fall into a pothole and you just might see why I think this city has so much more to offer than the suburbs of Johnson County....

That rant wasn't meant for you Samantha. Just a rant.

[Samantha S]

Originally Posted by kcmo

Blue Valley is just a very very wealthy district and with that, you get fancy schools and almost zero people from lower demographics to bring down stats.

I believe there is also much greater parental involvement in the JoCo schools - which is one of the things I really like about our schools. If you want to chaperone a field trip for your kids at our school, you have to put your name in a hat - because so many parents want to help out.

More money also means higher paid teachers - which attracts and retains (theoretically) better teachers. I'm sure there are exceptions on both sides - but in general, I think we have some of the best teachers in the area.

Yes, there are some good MO schools too -- and there are pros and cons to "wealth" in a school district. Everybody has to weigh their options and choose what's best for their kids.

Originally Posted by kcmo

But you can't tell me that a good, honor roll student at BV is any smarter than a good honor roll student from Park Hill, NKC, Lee's Summit, Blue Springs, Raytown, RayPec, Liberty etc.

Agreed -- I don't believe I've ever said that.

Originally Posted by kcmo

I have nothing against JoCo.

You could have fooled me!

Originally Posted by kcmo

The last thing we want to hear after filling your office parks with companies that used to be and still should be in our urban core is how much better your schools and neighborhoods are.

Right. Why on earth should any community try to improve itself!? Don't bring in any new businesses! Don't improve communities and schools! The nerve!! The absolute nerve!!!

Originally Posted by kcmo

I would just ask you to get out more. We go to JoCo all the time even though we have no reason to. Try it; go shopping in the northland or some other area of town. Your car won't get stolen, you won't get shot, you won't fall into a pothole and you just might see why I think this city has so much more to offer than the suburbs of Johnson County....

That rant wasn't meant for you Samantha. Just a rant.

But this is where you really lose me. I have lived here for almost 2 decades. I have been to every corner of the metro area and I am frequently in various parts of the MO side (North, South, in between and including surrounding towns) for work and for fun.

I would just ask you to consider that not all of JoCo is ignorant of Missouri. We HAVE been there. We're not afraid of it. We don't hate it or look down our noses at it. We just like our neighborhoods and schools better. That's why we live here. To each his own.

[kcmo]

My main point was that if somebody was moving to KC for a job in the northland and wanted a nice, upscale, safe, suburban neighborhood with great schools, good parks and low traffic, then there is no reason why this person would have to even consider living clear down in Johnson County, KS when all that and more is offered all over the Northland.

If this person was working in KCK, I would say, go to Johnson County (or Platte County) unless they want the more rural suburban lifestyle that western Wyandotte County offers.

If this person was working in SKC, I would be more likely to recommend, living in Johnson County or Lee’s Summit as SKC is just not the best area of town right now.

But this person is going to be working in the Northland, an area that is growing by leaps and bounds. An area with some of the best schools in the metro (Park Hill, NKC, Liberty). And an area that offers the exact same quality of life as JoCo without the long commutes and at a price that is about 10-20% less in both housing and taxes, then there really is no reason for people to try to convince this person that there are better options 30-40 miles away. That is false.

And most of the growth in JoCo, especially the initial growth in the 80’s and 90’s, came at the expense of KCMO. It’s ok to want to grow and expand, but it’s not ok to do so by simply taking companies out of KCMO and putting them in JoCo office parks (especially using tax incentives to “bring new jobs to KS” when those jobs were only ten miles away in MO). Even though JoCo really benefited from this migration, the metro area as a whole really suffered and KC became a place few wanted to move to up till the past 5-10 years when the urban core of KC began to come back. Many people want more to life than just the perfect suburb. Even if you live in OP, you still want a vibrant urban city close to you. At least a lot of people do.

So if a new person comes to town and has the chance to live on the MO side where they will actually vote and take a vested interest on issues like stadiums, arenas, transit, zoo improvements , museum funding etc in addition to their local schools, then I’m going to show them that the MO side offers anything you could ever want in KC. We need more people in KC that actually take more of an interest and help fund the things that make this city great.

So many people that transfer to KC are pushed to JoCo because they are told that is the area with the good schools and nice suburbs. They could have found good schools and nice suburbs on the MO side too. I know of many people that have moved to KC (JoCo) and ended up moving to the Northland or other areas later after they found out that JoCo is not the only nice suburban area in town.

But if a person is working in JoCo then many times living in JoCo is really the best option…

[Samantha S]

Originally Posted by kcmo

My main point was that if somebody was moving to KC for a job in the northland and wanted a nice, upscale, safe, suburban neighborhood with great schools, good parks and low traffic, then there is no reason why this person would have to even consider living clear down in Johnson County, KS when all that and more is offered all over the Northland.

If this person was working in KCK, I would say, go to Johnson County (or Platte County) unless they want the more rural suburban lifestyle that western Wyandotte County offers.

If this person was working in SKC, I would be more likely to recommend, living in Johnson County or Lee’s Summit as SKC is just not the best area of town right now.

But this person is going to be working in the Northland, an area that is growing by leaps and bounds. An area with some of the best schools in the metro (Park Hill, NKC, Liberty). And an area that offers the exact same quality of life as JoCo without the long commutes and at a price that is about 10-20% less in both housing and taxes, then there really is no reason for people to try to convince this person that there are better options 30-40 miles away. That is false.

And my first post in this thread said just that.

I wouldn't call it "exactly" the same, as I'd see pros and cons on boths sides. But my first recommendation was to check out the new subdivisions in the Liberty area. I was referring to the I 29 corridor, although that may not be considered Liberty-proper.

Originally Posted by kcmo

And most of the growth in JoCo, especially the initial growth in the 80’s and 90’s, came at the expense of KCMO. It’s ok to want to grow and expand, but it’s not ok to do so by simply taking companies out of KCMO and putting them in JoCo office parks (especially using tax incentives to “bring new jobs to KS” when those jobs were only ten miles away in MO). Even though JoCo really benefited from this migration, the metro area as a whole really suffered and KC became a place few wanted to move to up till the past 5-10 years when the urban core of KC began to come back. Many people want more to life than just the perfect suburb. Even if you live in OP, you still want a vibrant urban city close to you. At least a lot of people do.

Again - nobody was holding a gun to those businesses to make them move. KCMO has made some notoriously bad business decisions as a city over the last several years. That's not OP's fault. That OP chose to capitalize on KCMO's shortcomings -- well -- that's the way it goes.

One example: The expansion of Bartle Hall. Great idea! But the planning for additional parking, restaurants and hotel space was a day late and a dollar short. OP on the other hand puts up the OP Convention center along with a huge new hotel and parking lot as well as an expansion of surrounding hotels and restaurants. Where will an organization choose to have it's convention? Hmmm .....

Now is that OP stealing business from KCMO? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by kcmo

So many people that transfer to KC are pushed to JoCo because they are told that is the area with the good schools and nice suburbs. They could have found good schools and nice suburbs on the MO side too. I know of many people that have moved to KC (JoCo) and ended up moving to the Northland or other areas later after they found out that JoCo is not the only nice suburban area in town.

Agreed. Everyone has to weigh the options for themselves.

[kcmo]

Originally Posted by Samantha S

I wouldn't call it "exactly" the same, as I'd see pros and cons on both sides. But my first recommendation was to check out the new subdivisions in the Liberty area. I was referring to the I 29 corridor, although that may not be considered Liberty-proper.

I get that, you did good. Although the “I-35” not I-29 corridor near Liberty is not really the best part of the Northland. It’s nice, but it’s more like Olathe. Most of the very nice areas of the Northland are not visible from the interstates and therefore unless you really know the Northland, you won’t know about them.

Originally Posted by Samantha S

Again - nobody was holding a gun to those businesses to make them move. KCMO has made some notoriously bad business decisions as a city over the last several years. That's not OP's fault. That OP chose to capitalize on KCMO's shortcomings -- well -- that's the way it goes.

One example: The expansion of Bartle Hall. Great idea! But the planning for additional parking, restaurants and hotel space was a day late and a dollar short. OP on the other hand puts up the OP Convention center along with a huge new hotel and parking lot as well as an expansion of surrounding hotels and restaurants. Where will an organization choose to have it's convention? Hmmm .....

Now is that OP stealing business from KCMO? I don't think so.

OK, this is where you lose me .

First off, the convention center has nothing to do with companies fleeing KCMO for Johnson County. It’s two things. Lack of civic pride and money. You can build an office building on a farm field in Johnson County for ¼ of what it cost to build an office building in KCMO where land is more expensive, parking has to be structured, buildings tend to be more intense and taller and land typically has to be redeveloped, not just cleared of vegetation or a few homes. Add in the tax incentive that the KS suburbs hand out, especially state incentives for “new” jobs to the state and KCMO can’t even begin to compete.

A lot of companies are going to choose the cheaper suburbs over the city and that’s fine. But it’s been a one way street in KC for three decades and it ultimately killed not only the city, but the metro as our metro has gone from a desirable top 25 metro to a mostly suburban “has been” that was only attractive to people from the rural states around KC that had no interest in a vibrant city. Plus when all the jobs and residents moved to KS, that left the MO side, the side of the city that funds and provides all the regional entertainment venues and cultural attractions with less revenue to pay for things that more people in KS are using for free. That is now changing as the city is now doing quite well again and the MO suburbs are booming. But the KS side still gets a free ride in this metro.

Back to the convention centers.

If you think that OP convention center is successful. Think again. First off it does not even compete with the one in Downtown KCMO. Those are two very different venues. One is a major national convention center and the other is nothing more than a large meeting space. The OP center doesn’t draw major conventions. It mostly draws local and regional meetings. There is nothing around the OP center. The closest restaurants to that area are on Metcalf etc and you have to have a car to get to them. The OP center is 45 miles and a $125 cab ride from KCI. People from Boston, Denver etc are not going to find anything about the area around the OP convention center appealing or interesting. It’s a small, regional convention center that hosts trade shows and meetings from companies and government entities based in Kansas that want to keep their meetings in Kansas.

Now the KCMO convention center draws hundreds of thousands of people a year from out of town. They fly in and take buses and cabs (some rent cars) to downtown where they can “walk” to places downtown to eat or take a cab or bus to crown center or the plaza and believe me, when bartle hall has major conventions, which is about once a week, people do this and love to see “KC” and what it offers like Union Station, Liberty Memorial the Baseball museum, Nelson or the Plaza. They probably don’t care about the Panera Bread at 110th and Metcalf.

There is plenty of parking downtown. It’s underground and in garages, but there is plenty of parking. Sorry we can’t build a 25 acre surface parking lot like OP can. KCMO has spent billions of dollars on downtown. The convention center alone is nearly a billion dollar investment. You can’t compare that to the 60,000 sq ft 400 room hotel in OP.

KC’s companies should have more pride in the “city”. They leave the city because they don’t care about it, not because KCMO makes bad decisions. It’s more expensive to be in Downtown Denver or Charlotte or Minneapolis too, but companies choose to be there because they want to be there and not in some suburban office park. Thank god KC has some great companies that are truly committed to KC like Hallmark and American Century. It just doesn’t have enough.

[/quote]

[bls5555]

Originally Posted by erock7100

I have recently been made an offer to relocate to Kansas City. My work is very close to the KCI airport. I am married with 2 small children (5 and 2). A community that is family oriented, safe and good schools are of the utmost importance. We spent the weekend there and some of the areas we like are: Overland Park (long drive - almost 38 miles and traffic), Western Shawnee (still 30 miles), and Parkville. A few people at work mentioned living in Liberty, but we did not get to check it out. Any input would be greatly appreciated. We have found it hard to get an objective opinion as people from KS are so pro KS and same for the MO people. We just need help in making the right decision for our family. Thanks to anyone for their input.

You would be insane to move to the KS side. There is absolutely no point unless you like longer drives to work for absolutely no reason. Look at the areas along the I-29 corridor. That would be stuff like N.Oak Trafficway exit, 56th St. Exit, 64th St. Exit and the 72nd St. Exit.

All great areas and you should be able to find whatever you want in a very broad price range.

Where we moved we are about 8 minutes or so from the Airport and only 10 minutes or so from Downtown KC. Once again, you would be nuts to not lookin the area I mentioned above. I say the same about Liberty also. There is no reason to move that far from anything when the area around 56th, 64th and 72nd is just as nice, if not nicer, than most places in the area.

[Samantha S]

Originally Posted by kcmo

First off, the convention center has nothing to do with companies fleeing KCMO for Johnson County. It’s two things. Lack of civic pride and money. You can build an office building on a farm field in Johnson County for ¼ of what it cost to build an office building in KCMO where land is more expensive, parking has to be structured, buildings tend to be more intense and taller and land typically has to be redeveloped, not just cleared of vegetation or a few homes. Add in the tax incentive that the KS suburbs hand out, especially state incentives for “new” jobs to the state and KCMO can’t even begin to compete.

I still don't see why it should be OP's concern that KCMO can't/won't compete. What's stopping KCMO from handing out tax incentives? Or subsidizing the cost of the development? You seem to be saying that OP shouldn't take advantage of its business and growth opportunities because it hurts a weaker player in the game.

Originally Posted by kcmo

A lot of companies are going to choose the cheaper suburbs over the city and that’s fine. But it’s been a one way street in KC for three decades and it ultimately killed not only the city, but the metro as our metro has gone from a desirable top 25 metro to a mostly suburban “has been” that was only attractive to people from the rural states around KC that had no interest in a vibrant city.

Again - not OP's problem. The first rule of business is "Find a need and fill it" KCMO missed the boat on that and OP benefitted because they responded to the need. That's the game.

Originally Posted by kcmo

Plus when all the jobs and residents moved to KS, that left the MO side, the side of the city that funds and provides all the regional entertainment venues and cultural attractions with less revenue to pay for things that more people in KS are using for free. That is now changing as the city is now doing quite well again and the MO suburbs are booming. But the KS side still gets a free ride in this metro.

Can you give me some specific examples of this "free ride"? Because I am pretty sure I pay the same sales taxes and ticket prices and parking fees that you do when I shop or attend an event in MO.

Are you upset that less is collected in property taxes? Again -- time to revamp the system - not whine that OP should stop playing the game.

Originally Posted by kcmo

Back to the convention centers.

If you think that OP convention center is successful. Think again. First off it does not even compete with the one in Downtown KCMO. Those are two very different venues. One is a major national convention center and the other is nothing more than a large meeting space. The OP center doesn’t draw major conventions. It mostly draws local and regional meetings. There is nothing around the OP center. The closest restaurants to that area are on Metcalf etc and you have to have a car to get to them. The OP center is 45 miles and a $125 cab ride from KCI. People from Boston, Denver etc are not going to find anything about the area around the OP convention center appealing or interesting. It’s a small, regional convention center that hosts trade shows and meetings from companies and government entities based in Kansas that want to keep their meetings in Kansas.

Now the KCMO convention center draws hundreds of thousands of people a year from out of town. They fly in and take buses and cabs (some rent cars) to downtown where they can “walk” to places downtown to eat or take a cab or bus to crown center or the plaza and believe me, when bartle hall has major conventions, which is about once a week, people do this and love to see “KC” and what it offers like Union Station, Liberty Memorial the Baseball museum, Nelson or the Plaza. They probably don’t care about the Panera Bread at 110th and Metcalf.

There is plenty of parking downtown. It’s underground and in garages, but there is plenty of parking. Sorry we can’t build a 25 acre surface parking lot like OP can. KCMO has spent billions of dollars on downtown. The convention center alone is nearly a billion dollar investment. You can’t compare that to the 60,000 sq ft 400 room hotel in OP.

Okay -- I'll agree with everything you said -- so then what are you griping about? Seems like KCMO would have plenty of opportunity to improve its position.

Originally Posted by kcmo

KC’s companies should have more pride in the “city”.

Why?

Companies are first about making money. If a downtown image helps make them more money, they will pay to maintain it -- if it doesn't -- then you better have something to offer them or they will leave - simple as that.

Corporations don't like a place because it's "the place" -- They like a place because of what it offers them. KCMO's bad decisions have centered around a misunderstanding of what corporations and people wanted. OP offered them what they wanted and KCMO didn't. Hence, one grew and the other lost out.

Originally Posted by kcmo

They leave the city because they don’t care about it, not because KCMO makes bad decisions. It’s more expensive to be in Downtown Denver or Charlotte or Minneapolis too, but companies choose to be there because they want to be there and not in some suburban office park. Thank god KC has some great companies that are truly committed to KC like Hallmark and American Century. It just doesn’t have enough.

And what is KCMO doing to incent companies to come back? Or to create or maintain offices downtown? That's a serious question. Are they doing anything? Because if not, then there's no room for whiners.

[kcmo]

Samantha, you have basically proven to me that you are a pretty much the typical joco person that rubs me the wrong way. KCMO does everything wrong and JOCO does everything right.

So I'm done discussing this with you, sorry.

But if anybody wants to continue the original topic, I would be glad to help...

[Samantha S]

Originally Posted by kcmo

Samantha, you have basically proven to me that you are a pretty much the typical joco person that rubs me the wrong way. KCMO does everything wrong and JOCO does everything right.

So I'm done discussing this with you, sorry.

No problem. I can see why that would be so.

For what it's worth, I thought about you this evening. My family and I were downtown. We went to the Lyric Theater to the KC Symphony's Magic of Christmas show. Then we drove around the Power and Light area and then went down to Crown Center for some dinner and shopping. Things seem to be fairly bustling. I certainly did my part for the inner city economy! Good for KC!

Then on the way through downtown, on Grand avenue, smack in between the new Sprint Center and Crown Center, my young daughter has to ask me, "Mommy? What does 'Totally Nude' mean? See it says that in lights on the side of that building!"

So I got to explain that to my child! THANKS FOR THAT KC!!!

[kcmo]

Glad you had fun and glad you "DROVE" around everywhere, I’m sure everybody really was able to take in the city .

The city is the city. KC is not the only city that has strip clubs. I actually can't think of a major city that isn’t' going to have stuff like that.

You blow it off, but if you don't like the very few places that are in downtown KC. I wouldn't set foot in most large towns.

But then again, if you can't walk 2 blocks, I doubt this is a huge problem....

Have a good weekend!