The Kansas vs Missouri debate, why does half of KC hate the other half? (Overland: homes, neighborhoods)

[Samantha S]

Originally Posted by skrizzle

Kansas side I would prefer was not a part of our metro... Mainly cuz all the problems with jobs and companies cuz it's in another state. I never go to Joco except for jobs which sucks

What an insightful contribution!

[RjRobb2]

Originally Posted by skrizzle

Kansas side I would prefer was not a part of our metro... Mainly cuz all the problems with jobs and companies cuz it's in another state. I never go to Joco except for jobs which sucks

Uh, what you are talking about? What problems with jobs and companies? All the companies in JoCo add a lot of jobs to the metro area. That is probably their biggest contribution to the area is all the companies that have large offices or even headquarters there. The companies in JoCo employ 10s of thousands of people and from what it sounds like yourself included.

[kcmo]

A very large portion of those jobs in Johnson County simply moved from Kansas City, MO over the past 20-30 years. There are many reasons for it, white flight, tax breaks, cheaper land, closer to suburban population, less city taxes, free parking etc.

This migration of employees from MO to KS has been absolutely detrimental to the region as a whole. JoCo boomed in the 70’s-90’s, but mostly at the expense of other areas of the metro. The net result was that even though everything looked great in JoCo, the region as a whole was failing and we lost a lot of ground to other metro areas that did not see migration to such an extent. Even those that did, they recovered faster by bringing back the urban core quicker than KC (such as Denver) and the jobs that did move to the suburbs in other metro areas at least stayed in the same state and therefore companies and employees still contributed to the local state and city tax jurisdictions and still had more of a vested interest in the urban core and many moved back to be a part of the new urban wave of development that young people desire. None of that happened in KC.

In KC, so much of the employment moved to the KS side and residents followed. It snowballed. Kansas City became known as a city you didn’t want to live in unless you wanted a total suburban lifestyle. You couldn’t get young people from other large metros to move here because the city was dead.

Companies that are in KCMO tend to be much more involved in the community while companies on the KS side just don’t care as much. Companies like Hallmark and American Century do more for KC than much larger Sprint ever did. By the time Sprint finally hired a CEO that really cared about how Sprint interacted with the entire community (Gary Forsee), the damage was done. Sprint had become nothing more than one of the area’s biggest contributors to sprawl and the company had very little local pride outside of Overland Park.

In general, KS companies have KS pride, not “KC” pride. We missed the urban boom of the 90’s and 00’s because while Charlotte and Minneapolis and Denver and Dallas and San Diego and Seattle were building new corporate skyscrapers downtown, we were emptying out our downtown buildings to fill the bland office parks at 130th and Metcalf, 95th and Renner, College and I-35 etc. Every city sprawls and migrates to the burbs. KC was taking that to the highest level possible.

The first thing people in JoCo will say is that if it were not for JoCo, all of those jobs and residents would not be here. Who would support the Royals, the Chiefs, the Symphony? That’s simply not true. They would be on the MO side in the urban core, up by KCI, in suburban Jackson County etc and the end results would be a metro area that would be much better off. If closer to 80-90% of the metro population and businesses were on the MO side, KC would have light rail, a vibrant downtown, a solid tax base to fund the stadiums, museums and other attractions. KC would be more like a Denver than a bigger version of the quad cities.

The bistate KC area could work. We could make it work through a powerful overlay government like MARC or something that would collect regional taxes, control tax breaks for companies jumping the state line etc.

But it’s quite obvious that the only thing JoCo is interested in is their own economic development and if 90% of that is simply taking jobs from KCMO. So be it.

[Samantha S]

Originally Posted by kcmo

But it’s quite obvious that the only thing JoCo is interested in is their own economic development and if 90% of that is simply taking jobs from KCMO. So be it.

Here we go again.

If closer to 80-90% of the metro population and businesses were on the MO side ....

So why aren't they?

Tell me, kcmo, What were the city governments of Independence, Blue Springs, Liberty, North Kansas City, Platte City, Raytown, etc. doing whilst JoCo was "stealing" all these companies in the 70-90's?

Could these cities not have offered the same tax benefits and incentives for growth that were offered in JoCo? I realize it's tough to offer free parking downtown, but MO's burbs could have had as much to offer as Overland Park. Then the revenues would have all stayed in MO and JoCo would be a quaint bedroom community.

With apologies to Marlon Brando: "They coulda been a contendah"

But they didn't do this. Why?

MO wants the revenue of bi-state cooperative, but they forget the latter part of that phrase.

Tell me, if you had a choice: A) Start your own business, do things your way and reap the benefits, or B) Enter into a partnership with a partner who doesn't really want to do things for the benefit of the whole, who wants your help, but not your input ... What would you do???

It's too bad that MO missed the boat. But it's not JoCo's fault.

[kcmo]

There are many reasons most of the companies fled KCMO for JoCo rather than other parts of the Missouri side.

Here are some.

Cheap, easy to develop land. JoCo is one of the easiest areas of the metro to develop. It’s flat, has very little rock and flood plains. It much cheaper to build on flat farmland than to try to clear rock, build bridges, flatten land etc that has to be done in most of eastern Jackson County and much of the Northland. This is why western JoCo just started to develop and more technical parts of JoCo (along 435’s west leg) have been skipped over.

It’s closer to the core of the city and places people want to stay close to like the Plaza, Museums etc than places like Lee’s Summit.

You can’t give the same kinds of tax breaks to keep a company trying to stay in a state as you can to bring a company to a different state. Most tax breaks given in KS are issued because of “new jobs brought into the state” even though those jobs didn’t come from Texas, but a few miles away in KCMO. In the past few years, KCMO has started to offer similar incentives to lure back the very companies that left for Kansas, but for the most part, they still can’t compete because it cost more to build an urban office building and parking garage that a box in a suburban office park. And again, many KS officials cry when KCMO offers such breaks even though JoCo cities have done it for decades. Lee’s Summit and the Northland will never get a KS company to relocate because they are too far away from too many of their current employees.

The threat of school desegregation with KCMOSD scared many people to Kansas. In the 70’s-80’s, many large cities were going through deseg and urban schools had to mix with suburban schools. That never happened in KC, but it was a threat and you were safe on the Kansas side. Real estate agents used this to their fullest and during the boom years of JoCo, it was a well known fact that agents would tell people that if they want good schools, they need to look at JoCo. It became almost culture after that for locals on the KS side to group the entire MO side, especially anything in the city of KCMO (which scared people from the Northland) as “bad schools”.

Metropolitan taxes. You can live on the KS side, in the heart of a major metropolitan area, and not have to pay any sort of regional taxes that would generally apply to a major metro area county. No taxes for transit, indigent health care, stadiums, museums, theaters etc. In many cities, people move 30-50 miles away to avoid taxes like this. In KC, you just have to a few blocks across state line. Yet you are still closer to the Zoo or Liberty Memorial than somebody in Lee’s Summit or Liberty or Grandview or KCNorth. A lot of people in JoCo pay the Etax, but so does everybody that lives in KCMO and most people that live in the MO burbs. It’s the only way KCMO gets anything from suburbanites and they have to stick it to their residents as well.

The reason I spelling all this out is because most people think JoCo became what it is because of perfect planning and perfect schools. The real reason JoCo became what it is today is do to a plethora of opportunities that fell into their lap and amazing luck in geography, topography etc.

Can you really blame JoCo cities, residents and businesses for taking advantage of these opportunities? Not really. Can you blame JoCo (and KCMO for its lack of leadership) for not trying to correct some of these issues and make the best of it?

Absolutely.

This city is the way it is. Our political lines and geography really make things difficult. It’s going to take incredible leadership on both sides to fix many of these problems and try to act like a singe metro of over 2 million people. But even when KCMO produces leadership that is worthy of JoCo cooperation, the KS side turns its back on KCMO and wants no part of it. Transit is a good example of this. As is trying to create a plan to stop areas cities from go after other area companies.

The tide has finally turned now though. The urban core is showing signs of life, the Northland is growing faster than JoCo and when you add in Lee’s Summit, the urban core and other areas, the MO side is now where most of the economic development is occurring. In 1980-2000, 70- 80% of all metro development occurred in JoCo. So the MO side had taken a new approach to “regional”.

Jackson, Clay, Platte. If we want to get anything done in this town, we have to think this way now and the MO side is getting big enough to go at it alone, even if the KS side is only there to take advantage of whatever we do. What really drives the resentment toward JoCo is not the “freeloading” the “stealing”, but the fact that even though JoCo takes advantage of the MO to its fullest, many people in JoCo still have little positive to say about the MO side. I think people can live with JoCo taking advantage of a situation. It’s the “we will take advantage of you and then spit in your face as we look down on you poor, stupid Missouri people and your crime ridden, subpar neighborhoods because JoCo is now the center of this metro area and we do everything right while MO can’t do anything right” that really rubs MO side residents the wrong way.

Basically people are saying screw JoCo, we don’t need them anymore. We could do wonders as a metropolitan area if they were more cooperative, but it’s time to move on.

That’s too bad.

Like Is said, I’m trying to explain how this city grew and how a lot of people think and why they think that way. I’m not trying to insult anybody here at all. I grew up in KCMO, love the city (the entire city) with all my heart and want the metro to succeed and grow and everybody in my family also grew up in KCMO. Most still live there or are in the MO burbs. They all feel the same way. They don’t hate JoCo, but they do resent how the county interacts with the rest of the metro area.

[northbound74]

Originally Posted by Versatile

Years ago i spent several months in Burlington Ia. Same there as here. Those from Ia said anyone across the river(Mississippi) was trash and those on the Illnois said those in Ia were rich snobs.

DOH!

I wouldn't move away from here because of the constant bickering. I know that's everywhere. I does seem worse in KC than other places I've lived.
There's many other issues going on in my life that makes me want to leave. The "border war" stuff is just gets old... I'm trying to refrain from it.

[luzianne]

Originally Posted by kcmo

A very large portion of those jobs in Johnson County simply moved from Kansas City, MO over the past 20-30 years. There are many reasons for it, white flight, tax breaks, cheaper land, closer to suburban population, less city taxes, free parking etc.

.

Well then why doesn't Missouri do something to KEEP business in Missouri? Of course they are going to go where the taxes are less and the parking is free and the land is cheaper. Of course it is appealing for some people to be able to live and work in the suburbs. If Missouri cannot compete then they are going to lose businesses. Are you saying Johnson County isn't playing fair if they offer more of what businesses are looking for and that in turn takes businesses out of Kansas City, Missouri? Competition is a good thing.

And the things you cite are not the only factors, either. I know a lot of doctors moved their practices from Missouri to Kansas and got on staff at Kansas hospitals because malpractice insurance in Missouri was way too expensive. Again, if you want to keep businesses, you have to compete!

[Versatile]

I have a comment. I have noticed over manny years that over 4th of July that a huge amount of Kansas people come over the stateline to buy fireworks and then go along D hwy in Cass county and shoot them off and the trash they leave behind is appalling. I wish the goof people of Joco would tell them to quit it. The sheriff says there are too many to arrest.
I came home to my farm one day and a man with adog wasstanding out by my garage. He was clean cut and didn't look like a thief and had a dog with him. He told me that he was just walking his dog and that he lived in Kranker estates on Kenneth Rd. I always wonder how he would of felt had i been in is back yard walking my dog. Stuff like this is what get us Mo people riled up.

[luzianne]

Originally Posted by Versatile

I have a comment. I have noticed over manny years that over 4th of July that a huge amount of Kansas people come over the stateline to buy fireworks and then go along D hwy in Cass county and shoot them off and the trash they leave behind is appalling. I wish the goof people of Joco would tell them to quit it. The sheriff says there are too many to arrest.
I came home to my farm one day and a man with adog wasstanding out by my garage. He was clean cut and didn't look like a thief and had a dog with him. He told me that he was just walking his dog and that he lived in Kranker estates on Kenneth Rd. I always wonder how he would of felt had i been in is back yard walking my dog. Stuff like this is what get us Mo people riled up.

I don't think that is something that is exclusive to Cass County or Missouri. I think anywhere that people are not allowed to shoot fireworks, they find somewhere that they can. There are bans against fireworks in Missouri suburbs too, so it could just as easily be Missouri people on D highway in Cass County as Johnson County people. I personally don't know of any Johnson County person who goes to Missouri to do fireworks; they (by "they" I mean mainly high school/college age kids) go south out of the city limits to do it. Or they go to a 4th of July party on private property outside of town where it is allowed. Most people I know, including myself, watch a fireworks display and forego doing their own fireworks. It would be okay with me if they were outlawed altogether because they do make a huge mess.

[Samantha S]

Originally Posted by kcmo

Can you really blame JoCo cities, residents and businesses for taking advantage of these opportunities? Not really. Can you blame JoCo (and KCMO for its lack of leadership) for not trying to correct some of these issues and make the best of it?

Absolutely.

You seem to go pretty heavy on JoCo and pretty light on KCMO.

This city is the way it is. Our political lines and geography really make things difficult.

But any animosity is JoCo's fault.

It’s going to take incredible leadership on both sides to fix many of these problems and try to act like a singe metro of over 2 million people. But even when KCMO produces leadership that is worthy of JoCo cooperation, the KS side turns its back on KCMO and wants no part of it. Transit is a good example of this. As is trying to create a plan to stop areas cities from go after other area companies.

Any plan on any issue is going to have to benefit JoCo as much as it does MO, or of course they won't want to do it. But MO just wants the money, they forget when it comes to the cooperation part.

The tide has finally turned now though. The urban core is showing signs of life, the Northland is growing faster than JoCo and when you add in Lee’s Summit, the urban core and other areas, the MO side is now where most of the economic development is occurring. In 1980-2000, 70- 80% of all metro development occurred in JoCo. So the MO side had taken a new approach to “regional”.

Jackson, Clay, Platte. If we want to get anything done in this town, we have to think this way now and the MO side is getting big enough to go at it alone,

Good for MO!

even if the KS side is only there to take advantage of whatever we do.

What really drives the resentment toward JoCo is not the “freeloading” the “stealing”, but the fact that even though JoCo takes advantage of the MO to its fullest, many people in JoCo still have little positive to say about the MO side. I think people can live with JoCo taking advantage of a situation. It’s the “we will take advantage of you and then spit in your face as we look down on you poor, stupid Missouri people and your crime ridden, subpar neighborhoods because JoCo is now the center of this metro area and we do everything right while MO can’t do anything right” that really rubs MO side residents the wrong way.

Oh brother. This is really getting old. Yes, yes, we all hate all of you ...

They don’t hate JoCo

Riiiightt ... no preconceived opinions coming from the MO side, KS just brings it all on themselves ...

You should change your name to "Johnny One Note"