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Old 08-05-2009, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
7,854 posts, read 9,763,701 times
Reputation: 3278

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Transit will never, ever pay for itself. It's urban infrastructure like freeways and bridges. You have to look at the indirect payback. If you invest 500 million in a light rail line, it will generate at least that much in economic development along the line and create a better city in the process.

Your attitude that KCMO can't do anything right is "my" point. That's the general mentality from Kansans toward KCMO. Like any large city, KCMO doesn't do everything right. But the reasons the zoo, museums etc fall into disrepair have much more to do with them simply being under funded than the city not being able to manage them or their funding sources.

It's really this simple. The city of KCMO can't maintain the attractions and assets of a region of over 2 million people alone. St Louis and most of their suburbs understand this, Minneapolis and their burbs get it, Denver and their burbs get it.

Kansas City's burbs are too busy dangling tax breaks to lure KCMO companies out to JoCo office parks to be bothered with regional cooperation to fund transit, museums, stadiums, zoos etc...

Rock chalk.
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Old 08-05-2009, 11:29 PM
 
1,662 posts, read 2,833,156 times
Reputation: 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
Transit will never, ever pay for itself. It's urban infrastructure like freeways and bridges. You have to look at the indirect payback. If you invest 500 million in a light rail line, it will generate at least that much in economic development along the line and create a better city in the process.
I was counting the indirect payback. But let's assume I'm wrong and you are right. So what's the problem? If the economic development will more than pay for it, what's holding it back? Could it be that there are indicators it may not?

And oh yes, the initial investment. But for that you want KS to pony up. And what sort of return on the investment can we expect? Nicer tourist attractions from which we will see no revenue?

Should we care? Or should we just throw a quarter of a billion dollars across the state line and hope for the best?


Quote:
Your attitude that KCMO can't do anything right is "my" point. That's the general mentality from Kansans toward KCMO. Like any large city, KCMO doesn't do everything right. But the reasons the zoo, museums etc fall into disrepair have much more to do with them simply being under funded than the city not being able to manage them or their funding sources.

It's really this simple. The city of KCMO can't maintain the attractions and assets of a region of over 2 million people alone. St Louis and most of their suburbs understand this, Minneapolis and their burbs get it, Denver and their burbs get it.

Kansas City's burbs are too busy dangling tax breaks to lure KCMO companies out to JoCo office parks to be bothered with regional cooperation to fund transit, museums, stadiums, zoos etc...
And we're back to the double standard. When KC, MO is looking for funds we're one big metro. "It doesn't matter where the lines are! We need regional cooperation!

"Just don't ask us where the money goes or expect to have any say in that."

Then have a business move from one area of the metro to another, and those lines are drawn plain and clear. "JoCo is stealing from us! "

I'd like to see the reaction if Overland Park asked for a "regional" tax to put a rail through the middle of Johnson County.
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Old 08-06-2009, 01:05 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
7,854 posts, read 9,763,701 times
Reputation: 3278
I am one of the few that does not want the Kansas side to "pony up". That causes far more harm than good, it causes delay, if the Kansas side helps out they want everything they put into the pot to come back to Kansas. It defeats the purpose getting the suburbs to help out. It's ok for Lee's Summit to pay for the zoo or the stadiums, but Overland Park won't do it. Unless we build a zoo in Overland Park.

As I stated, trying to involve the KS side has delayed getting any sort of mass transit built anywhere in KC as MARC, KCMO and others try to go about building a "regional" transit system in the correct manner by getting all of the metro area involved only to watch KS side leaders do everything in their power to kill the idea before it ever gets a chance to even be voted on. The entire area waits years for KS lawmakers and Topeka and the mayors of OP, Olathe etc thinking something will get done, when in reality, laws get proposed to not only delay a regional transit tax, but to prevent any future regional taxes for any reason.

And this is for transit, something that WILL be built on the KS side because people on the MO side actually want to be connected to Kansas via transit. Too bad it’s not like that the other way around. Getting more cooperation for existing assets that are not in Kansas like the zoo, the museums, the stadiums, the theaters etc? Yea right, I know that’s a total pipe dream. This is not Denver, we don’t pass small 6 county regional taxes to build downtown attractions, we pass much larger and longer lasting taxes in KCMO or Jackson County only so people in JoCo have a place to entertain themselves.

I for one, don’t want Kansas side help. I want light rail in KC before the year 2050. I want to keep the sports teams and I will pay 4 times as much as I should in other taxes to keep the zoo and museums and starlight open even though I will still have to pay to get into them because they are still under funded because KCMO is the only city that contributes to their upkeep, even though 80% of the users of Starlight, the Zoo, the stadiums, the museums don’t even live in the city limits.

But I will let it be known that the Kansas side freeloads off the Missouri side. Johnson County freeloads off Jackson County like there is no tomorrow. Just admit that, say thanks to MO side residents for providing KS with most of the entertainment and culture they claim as theirs as needed and don’t get mad when this city finally gets smart and starts charging more to KS side residents who use and enjoy MO side attractions, theaters, museums, stadiums etc. The technology is there. Someday this city will be able to raise funds from metro suburbs without hurting tourism.

Till then, enjoy living in a major metropolitan area and all it offers without having to contribute a dime to it. I have to admit, living in JoCo has its benefits.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Prairie Village, KS
472 posts, read 799,026 times
Reputation: 115
I'm still waiting for I-35 to pay for itself!

I think KCMO should go ahead and proceed without Kansas. But as a Kansas suburbanite, you can bet I'll be putting pressure on my elected officials to get on the ball and work with Missouri building lines that connect to KC.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:22 AM
 
1,662 posts, read 2,833,156 times
Reputation: 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
if the Kansas side helps out they want everything they put into the pot to come back to Kansas.
The state is not a charity institution, you know.

Quote:
It's ok for Lee's Summit to pay for the zoo or the stadiums, but Overland Park won't do it. Unless we build a zoo in Overland Park.
If Overland Park wanted to build a zoo or some other tourist attraction, would taxpayers in Jackson County be willing to help pay for it? I think not.

But why not? Aren't we all one big metro?


Quote:
The entire area waits years for KS lawmakers and Topeka and the mayors of OP, Olathe etc thinking something will get done, when in reality, laws get proposed to not only delay a regional transit tax, but to prevent any future regional taxes for any reason.
And what does this say about the leadership on the MO side? For whatever reason, they don't think they can do it without KS money. Again, they are looking for a charitable donation (because they can't show the return to KS) and a double standard (because there is no way in hell they would pony up for anything being built on the KS side.)

Quote:
And this is for transit, something that WILL be built on the KS side because people on the MO side actually want to be connected to Kansas via transit. Too bad itís not like that the other way around. Getting more cooperation for existing assets that are not in Kansas like the zoo, the museums, the stadiums, the theaters etc? Yea right, I know thatís a total pipe dream. This is not Denver, we donít pass small 6 county regional taxes to build downtown attractions, we pass much larger and longer lasting taxes in KCMO or Jackson County only so people in JoCo have a place to entertain themselves.
Right, because we get to go to all these places for FREE. The attractions that are free (like the Nelson) are run primarily by private trusts, not your tax money.

Ooooh! You didn't know that?

It would also be pretty easy to squeeze extra money out of KS by charging us more to use those entertainment venues and such. But that will never happen. And why is that? .... Oh yeah, because no one wants to discourage JoCo money from coming in to MO.


Quote:
But I will let it be known that the Kansas side freeloads off the Missouri side. Johnson County freeloads off Jackson County like there is no tomorrow. Just admit that, say thanks to MO side residents for providing KS with most of the entertainment and culture they claim as theirs as needed and donít get mad when this city finally gets smart and starts charging more to KS side residents who use and enjoy MO side attractions, theaters, museums, stadiums etc. The technology is there. Someday this city will be able to raise funds from metro suburbs without hurting tourism.
Again, do a little research. Look at how much actual tax money flows into the theaters, museums, etc. and how much of their upkeep is paid for by private trusts, donations and ticket sales.

You are assuming that MO taxpayers are footing 100% of the bills for all these places and I'm telling you that's completely false.

Research it. Prove me wrong.

Till then, give it a rest!
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:45 AM
 
7,244 posts, read 5,160,696 times
Reputation: 2443
YEAH! What he said!


Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
Transit will never, ever pay for itself. It's urban infrastructure like freeways and bridges. You have to look at the indirect payback. If you invest 500 million in a light rail line, it will generate at least that much in economic development along the line and create a better city in the process.

Your attitude that KCMO can't do anything right is "my" point. That's the general mentality from Kansans toward KCMO. Like any large city, KCMO doesn't do everything right. But the reasons the zoo, museums etc fall into disrepair have much more to do with them simply being under funded than the city not being able to manage them or their funding sources.

It's really this simple. The city of KCMO can't maintain the attractions and assets of a region of over 2 million people alone. St Louis and most of their suburbs understand this, Minneapolis and their burbs get it, Denver and their burbs get it.

Kansas City's burbs are too busy dangling tax breaks to lure KCMO companies out to JoCo office parks to be bothered with regional cooperation to fund transit, museums, stadiums, zoos etc...

Rock chalk.
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Old 08-06-2009, 02:08 PM
 
1,662 posts, read 2,833,156 times
Reputation: 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneKC View Post
I'm still waiting for I-35 to pay for itself!

I think KCMO should go ahead and proceed without Kansas. But as a Kansas suburbanite, you can bet I'll be putting pressure on my elected officials to get on the ball and work with Missouri building lines that connect to KC.
Agreed. I'd have no problem with paying for lines that run through and serve the KS side.

But the first lines (that serve the airport, downtown, plaza) should be paid for without KS money. The initial planning and investment needs to come from MO. I think the fear is that KS money will be taken for the MO lines and then when it comes time to expand into KS, MO will drop the ball.

That and it would be political suicide for an elected official to vote to send KS money into MO with no plans for any return on that investment.
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
7,854 posts, read 9,763,701 times
Reputation: 3278
This thread pretty much sums up why KC has been passed up by so many cities and why KC will continue to be passed up by many new cities over the next 10-20 years...

Maybe that's not a bad thing KC will look about the same in 2030, just as it looks about the same today as it did in 1980. For a lot of people, I would assume that's a good thing.
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Old 08-07-2009, 03:46 PM
 
1,662 posts, read 2,833,156 times
Reputation: 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
This thread pretty much sums up why KC has been passed up by so many cities and why KC will continue to be passed up by many new cities over the next 10-20 years...

Maybe that's not a bad thing KC will look about the same in 2030, just as it looks about the same today as it did in 1980. For a lot of people, I would assume that's a good thing.
I still have no idea what this means.

"Cooler stuff?" "More stuff?" "Different stuff?

The city of Kansas City, MO is not known for having great city leadership. The school district has a terrible reputation. If anything is "holding KC back" that is where I would start looking. It's hard to take you seriously, kcmo, because you seem so jaded against so much of the area and you seem to have such a fundamental misunderstanding of the whole issue of taxes and the political processes by which they are collected and spent.

That said, I think the city and metro as a whole is progressing nicely. KC is not Denver, never will be, and that's okay with me. But what do I know?
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Old 08-07-2009, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
11,756 posts, read 10,056,173 times
Reputation: 15103
Default Major Omission

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samantha S View Post

And I agree with you about drinking and driving. I have no tolerance for idiots who do that.
Now that it's been proven that sleep-deprived drivers are no less dangerious than drunk drivers........................................... .....
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