Clay County (Kansas City, Liberty, Jackson: insurance, credit, home)

[kcmo]

OK captain obvious. I know how the etax works.

Do you really think JoCo people contribute 40%, even 35%? Really? That would be pretty amazing. You do know that every business in KCMO pays an Etax on profits right? and every single working resident in KCMO pays the Etax right? That's 1000's of businesses and nearly 500,000 residents (or however many of them work) and it does not matter where they work. You could Live in Shoal Creek and work in Lenexa and you will pay the Tax. The total amount of people that live in JoCo and work in KCMO is not that high. I think it's around 50-60k. Because of the decades of business migration, JoCo now imports far more employees than it exports. There are probably more people that live in KCMO and work in JoCo than the other way around. And they pay they KCMO etax too.

How ever many JoCo people that work in KCMO is a lot of people, but when you look at the number of people that live in KCMO and pay the tax, it's not anywhere near 40%. A MUCH higher percentage of people in Lee's Summit, Liberty etc pay the KCMO Etax than JoCo people because there is a higher percentage of those residents that work somewhere in the city of KCMO.

The last I heard, JoCo contributes 10-15% to the overall Etax and that's being very generous. I can't back that up, but that's what I remember. But I do like how you assume that rich old JoCo is such a contributor to KCMO’s bottom line .

It doesn’t matter anyway. Forget about the stupid Etax. Everybody in KCMO pays it, yet you pretty much only hear people in JoCo whine about it, even though JoCo is by far the least contributing county to the tax in the metro.

Again, that does not erase the fact that metro KC needs a regional funding source for sports and culture. Period.

There is a reason Union Station is under funded. Because KCMO can’t take it on alone. So it sits underutilized. Although that will soon change, there is a plan in place to raise the KC Museum property tax levy to get more money flowing to Union Station and the KC Museum. That extra money will only keep Union Station open not make it better. Union Station needs a permanent funding source just like the zoo, stadiums, theaters, museums etc. Why is the Zoo, Science Center, Botanical Gardens, etc so well done in StLouis? Cause they have a permanent metropolitan funding source in addition to other funding sources like fund raising.

Starlight is not getting public funding, but the venue gets massive upgrades at times which are funded by the city. The Zoo is subsidized annually by KCMO and Funkhouser threatened to shut that off along with the Truman Sports Complex subsidy earlier this year. KCMO is having to find 40 million for the Performing Arts Center, the city has raised sales taxes to fund the WWI Museum, the city has raised taxes to build the College Basketball Experience and the Negro League Baseball Museum. Kauffman and Arrowhead are subsidized by KCMO, the state of Missouri and Jackson County residents via a sales tax, a pretty hefty sales tax that will last forever. I’m sure Jackson County residents pay far more in sales taxes to the sports complex in a week than you do in a year. Wouldn’t it be nice if JaCo could have only done a 1/16 tax along with other metro area counties for a shorter time period (like metro Denver did) so they had some room left over to fund schools, police, highways etc without pushing the overall sales tax to 10% because of all the stadium and zoo and whatever else taxes?

A KCMO resident in Jackson County pays three times in taxes for the stadiums. The JaCo sales tax, the city subsidy and the state subsidy. How many beers does a JoCo resident have to buy in KCMO to equal that?

I think we just need to agree to disagree on this topic Samantha, There is no way in the world you will change my mind on any of this and I’m not going to change yours.

[Samantha S]

Originally Posted by kcmo

OK captain obvious. I know how the etax works.

Do you really think JoCo people contribute 40%, even 35%? Really? That would be pretty amazing.

No, I don't think I was clear on that. My conclusion was that 35% comes from outside the city itself, not necessarily all from JoCo.

So let's use your number:

The total amount of people that live in JoCo and work in KCMO is not that high. I think it's around 50-60k.

60k workers times an average salary of $30k is $18mil in revenue. That's over 10% of the total e-tax revenue. (as you agree)

JoCo also contributes at least that much in sales taxes to the city, plus at least twice that much in "Revenue from Public Enterprises" and we haven't even begun to count gaming, service charges, tourism, etc.

It adds up. By my estimation JoCo alone likely contributes 10% of the city's overall total revenue. That's a pretty big chunk. Likely higher than any other surrounding county on either side of the state line.

No matter how you slice it, it's hardly a "free ride".

It doesn’t matter anyway. Forget about the stupid Etax. Everybody in KCMO pays it, yet you pretty much only hear people in JoCo whine about it, even though JoCo is by far the least contributing county to the tax in the metro.

Those have to be two of the dumbest things you've ever said. You are talking out of your butt again.

Starlight is not getting public funding, but the venue gets massive upgrades at times which are funded by the city. The Zoo is subsidized annually by KCMO and Funkhouser threatened to shut that off along with the Truman Sports Complex subsidy earlier this year. KCMO is having to find 40 million for the Performing Arts Center, the city has raised sales taxes to fund the WWI Museum, the city has raised taxes to build the College Basketball Experience and the Negro League Baseball Museum. Kauffman and Arrowhead are subsidized by KCMO, the state of Missouri and Jackson County residents via a sales tax, a pretty hefty sales tax that will last forever. I’m sure Jackson County residents pay far more in sales taxes to the sports complex in a week than you do in a year. Wouldn’t it be nice if JaCo could have only done a 1/16 tax along with other metro area counties for a shorter time period (like metro Denver did) so they had some room left over to fund schools, police, highways etc without pushing the overall sales tax to 10% because of all the stadium and zoo and whatever else taxes?

Again, every time there is a sales tax increase, everyone in the metro pays more.

A KCMO resident in Jackson County pays three times in taxes for the stadiums. The JaCo sales tax, the city subsidy and the state subsidy. How many beers does a JoCo resident have to buy in KCMO to equal that?

Not very many when you consider that 100% of that beer sale goes to JaCo.

ALL of the money that comes from JoCo comes with little liability attached to it. There is NO REVENUE BENEFIT back to Johnson County for the money spent, it all stays in KCMO.

The City of Kansas City, MO pulls in pretty darn close (by my estimation) $100mil from Johnson County every year.

Again - hardly a "free ride".

I think we just need to agree to disagree on this topic Samantha, There is no way in the world you will change my mind on any of this and I’m not going to change yours.

That's fine. But when you say things that are blatantly not true or are just absolute crap - in the face of facts to the contrary - expect me to say so.

You fuel the disdain on both sides of the state line with your misinformation and snide comments.

You are as much a part of the problem as anyone I can think of.

[kcmo]

You can have the last word Samantha. Like I said, agree to disagree. At least I do.

[ryanswindle]

But I wanted the last word Ok here goes:
I hate jefferson county! Arvada people smoke too much pot!

I win!

[Samantha S]

Originally Posted by kcmo

You can have the last word Samantha. Like I said, agree to disagree. At least I do.

Whatever, I wasn't looking for the "last word". Maybe just the slightest nod from you that $100mil is a big chunk-o'-cheddah. Especially when it's 10% of your budget and there are relatively few expenses associated with it.

"agree to disagree" we can do for things like "JoCo has better schools." or "people in MO are friendlier."

See those things are matters of opinion. But other things like money, can actually be counted.

If you want to argue that JoCo should give more than it already does, fine. We can agree to disagree on that.

But enough already with this "free ride" crap. It's not true. You know it's not true. It's $100 million not true. So to continue to fuel and spread your disdain with it will make you (ready for the last word?) a liar.

[kcmo]

I have not said a single lie. And no, I'm not buying your math that joco contributes 100 million a year to KCMO. I'm not going to call you a liar, I don't do that (, but not buying it. 10% of the Etax is not 100 million, even when you figure in the sales taxes JoCo people pay while in MO.

But you did have the last word and post. I'm sure another will follow .

[Samantha S]

Originally Posted by kcmo

I have not said a single lie. And no, I'm not buying your math that joco contributes 100 million a year to KCMO.

You are welcome to do your own research. I didn't make that number up, it was a genuine attempt to estimate based on the MANY sources of income to the city to which JoCo contributes. I started with documentation from the city's own website.

And until you prove me wrong, I'll consider it a blatant lie to call JoCo residents "freeloaders." And I will call it such when I see it.

[sparksharp]

Why wouldn't someone take a free ride if they can get it?

It seems to me it would be stupid to do otherwise!

[Samantha S]

Originally Posted by sparksharp

Why wouldn't someone take a free ride if they can get it?

It seems to me it would be stupid to do otherwise!

The argument is that Johnson County on the KS side benefits from the many amenities in Kansas City, MO but does not contribute to the upkeep of the city and it's many features.

It is true that several businesses have moved from KC, MO over to JoCo, KS over the last couple of decades.

The City of Overland Park in particular saw the opportunity to fill a need and they took it. It has been a good move for OP and JoCo as a whole. Not surprisingly the city of KC, MO has indeed suffered because of this.

But it didn't happen overnight. And it didn't happen because of a vicious competitive plot to overthrow the Utopian Camelot that was KC, MO.

Some of it was luck. OP was able to provide cheap land and tax incentives to these businesses (some of which may not have been able to stay around at all otherwise.) But it's also fair to say that much of it was the result of progressive planning and leadership in Overland Park. It's fair to say that better leadership and planning in KC, MO could have painted a different picture than what we see today. Again, it didn't happen overnight.

Now, along with the hard feelings and accusations of "stealing" businesses. We in JoCo are called "freeloaders" because we so often enjoy the non-profit amenities of KC, MO (such as the museums, theater venues, etc.) and we work, shop and otherwise patronize the businesses there.

The accusation is that while we are enjoying these amenities, we are not contributing to their upkeep. What is conveniently forgotten is that JoCo in fact does contribute to the city of KC, MO and in a pretty significant way by my estimation.

Again, I am not an expert and I would welcome better information from anyone who has it.

But it's not a matter of "why wouldn't we freeload?" -- rather it's a matter of "Feeloaders? Whom do you think you are kidding????"

[kcmo]

JoCo as a whole should contribute more to the metro and not be as aggressive when it comes to luring companies (whatever is left to lure). Whatever JoCo contributes to the metro area’s attractions is not enough in my opinion and is much much lower than the average citizen in other areas counties, especially Jackson, Clay and Platte.

Now, I never said the county didn’t contribute anything. Etax money and other revenue flows to MO from KS. Sales taxes pretty much cancel out as so many people pay sales taxes on both sides of the state line. (now don't take that wrong becaue people in JACO pay far more in sales taxes for regional attractions than JoCo does. That can't be disputed.)

By far, the largest contribution from JoCo to KCMO is via the Etax and it’s a pretty small amount after you factor in how many people in JoCo pay the tax vs how many in MO do.

A much higher percentage of people in all MO counties pay the Etax. MUCH HIGHER. Plus like I mentioned, companies are taxed on profits and that is a huge portion of the etax.

As the second largest county in the metropolitan area and a county that has an economy that is nearly the same or larger than Jackson County now, Johnson County is getting a very good deal and is getting a relatively free ride in the metro area while not only benefiting form the things that are primarily funded by MO residents, but the county is in a position to lure over more and more companies every year from KCMO to KS that will continue to erode at the tax base in MO and widen the gap. I don't live in KCMO, yet my wife and I have paid the Etax since leaving. Yet I would have zero problem paying a regional tax as well.

Can you freaking imagine how much better this city could be if JoCo cooperated more with Jackson, Clay and Platte? I can. I imagine a well funded and expnded zoo that is free or only 5 bucks to get into. I imagine renovated or new stadiums with a 1/16 cent tax that will be gone in five years instead of a ½ cent 25 year tax on JaCo alone and with that I imagine a nice soccer stadium for the Wizards in WyCo or JoCo or lights at the Kansas Speedway. I imagine a transit system that includes bus lines that cross state line seamlessly or rail lines coming from both Olathe and Blue Springs into Union Station. Too bad JoCo has done everything to stop a bistate transit system even though ALL money raised in JoCo would go to JoCo transit. I imagine Union Station that actually has a funding source so we don’t try to use a little science museum’s tickets sales to pay the bills for a massive public structure like Union Station. Science museums don’t pay for themselves in any city. Yet somehow in KC, we not only expect the science museum to make a profit without subsidies, we expect it to subsidize the rest of union station. The end result is both fail. Union Station's renovation had nothing to do with KCMO, but in order for JoCo to be a part of the bistate tax, the tax had to be small and short lived. Union Station had to pay for itself once it was renovated. I knew that would never work. I knew Union Station will always need to be subsidized and that the Science Center should be as well. But area leaders had to have JoCo on board and JoCo would not sign up for anything other than paying for a renovation of the station. To this day, I wish KCMO or just the MO side counties would have just forgot about KS like with every other project and fund the project with a more dedicated long term source of revenue that also funded a high quality science museum. Instead we renovated the station, a science museum was built with private donations, but both have failed to meet expectations. Now KCMO is mostly blamed for this failure even though it had NOTHING to do with the renovation of Union Station and the main person running the show at the station was none other than JoCo’s own Steve Rose (of Sun Papers) who screwed up Union Station so bad before resigning yet never took any blame for it. He did however point fingers at KCMO (again, even though KCMO City Hall did not and could not have anything to do with the station as REQUIRED BY JOCO LEADERS as part of the plan). Now most people in JoCo point at KCMO's leaderhip as the reason Union Station didn't turn out as planned and use that as the primary reason to never do a bistate again. It's really jacked up. BTW, I was EXTREMELY involved in the renovation of Union Station and even donated a lot of time talking to people door to door in JoCo and asking them to support the plan. Most seemed open, a lot were quite hostile to the idea.

OK, back to what I imagine….

I imagine an area that STOPS luring companies within the metro. KCMO went to JOCO back in the 90’s and begged them to stop and asked them for a truce for no more competing for companies within the metro, especially across the state line. KCMO can’t compete with that. KS is “bringing new jobs to the state” even though they could be 2 miles away. KCMO is trying to keep jobs in the state. You can’t offer anywhere near the same incentives to keep jobs. Plus KS has cheap land that is ready to build on with surface parking. KCMO has urban land that typically needs expensive structured parking and the land may have to be redeveloped. Well JoCo basically told KCMO where to go. Why? Cause KCMO had nothing to lose. Companies don’t move from KS to MO. In just the past few years, a few have and JoCo started throwing a fit when KCMO started going after companies. Funny thing is that most of the companies KCMO went after moved to JoCo from KCMO at some point in the past. Yet JoCo and KS officials still got worked up over it.

This quote is from another forum:
Quote:

Remember, the day after local leaders unveiled the One KC campaign we learned that Quintiles was getting tax breaks to move hundreds of jobs from KCMO to Overland Park. Funny how when a suburb sticks up for itself it's considered good-natured competition, but when KCMO sticks up for itself it's considered divisive and in poor taste.

Here is the story behind that. A big press conference was called by Sprint CEO Bill Esrey who was a true leader in bistate cooperation unlike previous leaders at Sprint. He was a little too late, but he tried very hard to get Sprint to be more of a “KC” company and not just a JoCo company. He is the main reason Sprint purchased naming rights to the arena and why Sprint began donating so much to area attractions like the Zoo and Union Station. It’s too bad he wasn’t the CEO a decade earlier. Maybe Sprint could have built something in Downtown KC or KCK, or maybe Sprint could have acted like it was the largest company in the KC area instead of pretty much ignoring the region. Much smaller Hallmark and American Century have done far more for metro KC needs than Sprint for example. Had that happened, KC would be a different metro area today. Esrey has since left for a job at MU and KC misses him dearly.

Back to the topic. So this press conference was called. Esrey basically said we are ONE KC. We have got to stop this process of luring companies across the metro and concentrate on landing companies form outside the region. We also need to do more with regional cooperation such as create dedicated funding sources for transit, the arts and sporting and cultural venues. It seemed like a major turning point in metro KC.

The VERY NEXT DAY, it was announced that Quintiles (a long time kcmo company dating back to the Marrion Merrow Dow companies) would move hundreds of jobs to a new building in Overland Park. The company would receive massive tax breaks to move from the Triangle area of SKC ten miles down the road to OPKS. So that kind of burst the bubble on the ONE KC effort and sure didn’t slow down the migration of companies from MO to KS. Dozens more have moved since.

Boy OP cried fowl though when KCMO took the IRS employs from OP and put them in that new building near Union Station. One of the few times it has happened in reverse. They don’t like it at all, even though it rarely happens to them.

When JOCO cities do it to each other, I have to sit back and laugh though. Lenexa went after Applebee’s, a company that moved from KCMO to OP. Lenexa handed out a ridiculous amount of money to Applebee’s to move. Just an insane amount of money. Why? The employees already live in the area. Would Lenexa gain anything out of this? Nope, they just wanted the company to call Lenexa their HQ and would pay anything to have it. Applebee’s was bought by IHOP and the last I heard the new building is still practically vacant. Pretty stupid. But that won’t make the news. That’s JoCo. JoCo does nothing wrong. KCMO uses tax breaks to keep H&R Block from going to JoCo and the press is all over it. BTW, I know for a fact that Block was looking at College Blvd, they had a chosen site and everything. KCMO had to give up almost every tax every single person at H&R block generates, including the etax, to keep them from going to OP. And thank god block stayed in KCMO. Even with the massive incentives KCMO handed out, it would have been much cheaper to go to OP. Had H&R Block gone to OP, I don't think the P&L district would have ever gotten off the ground. So you can see how much these moves affect KCMO.

Anyway…More lies for you to chew on...